# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/881 "2012-03-31T16:21:40Z")
**The Tao’s Revenge** , I was going for a funny. It’s what the dispatcher tells Zimmerman. But I agree that **brazil84** harping on ‘no\_limit\_nigga’ to prove Trayvon’s nefariousness is weaksauce. Trayvon had no juvenile record. Grills are a fashion statement. Check out this [post](http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/the-thuggification-of-trayvon-martin/) to see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/882 "2012-03-31T16:26:09Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > My opinions only: > > 1. This could have been avoided if Zimmerman had used reason and constraint to begin with. He should have simply called the cops and let them handle it. But the dumbass wanted to be Clint Eastwood and made the stupid decision to follow Martin. > > 2. Even though the whole situation could have been avoided had Zimmerman exercised common sense, I have no doubt Martin attacked Zimmerman. I also believe Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. > > 3. Zimmerman was correct in using his weapon to stop Martin. It was a good shoot. > > 4. Trayvon Martin was a thug. Had he not been killed by Zimmerman, he would have been a career criminal the rest of his life. Martin would have contributed nothing to society. His death is no loss. Just anther thug. I know; in fact it’s a shame the kid wasn’t gunned down sooner. Perhaps we should have you patrol our middle-school playgrounds? I’m sure we can find you plenty more “career criminals” you can send to the morgue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/883 "2012-03-31T16:32:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think it was a rather weak question, actually. Right or wrong, he made a fair point with a pretty good explanation. You appear to then want him to own another position that, at best, is an extremely light version of the _flavor_ of his position, without it being his actual position. I think most people, including him, would be of the mind that someone can be fascinated by graffiti art and “into making gang signs” (though I admit that I’m not really clear what that means) and not be a thug destined for prison or the graveyard. Thank you for addressing it at least! Gang signs are hand gestures associated with gangs. I apologize for using a term without clarification. The thing is people completely unrelated to gangs use them. They’re kind of fun to make up. Yet there is a strong perception that only gang members make them. Same goes for graffiti. Strong connection associated with gangs. Same goes for ear rings, grills (cosmetic adornments to one’s teeth), tattoos, and what have you. People will pick up one detail like an ear ring or a grill and assume they’re probably crypt or some nonsense. This what I feel **Brazil84** did with his assertion that: "To me, if somebody chooses “no limit nigga” as a computer nickname, it suggest that this individual sees himself as aggressive and is proud of his affinity with African-American gangsta culture and all that entails ". Teenagers generally get into these things a lot, and then grow up to be boring law abiding people. It’s mostly bluff and image (trying to look hip and tough). Plus normal teenage rebellion (gotta bug the parents). There’s also sociological elements. Some people try to reclaim words. If you can successfully make a slur into something different then it loses its power to hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/884 "2012-03-31T16:34:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Right or wrong, he made a fair point with a pretty good explanation. Thank you. Of course, regardless of what question he asked, I would have ignored him since he is on my ban list. It’s not a matter of cowardice or courage – I simply have no interest in engaging with people whose style of debate is to pretend that I took a different position from the one I actually took. > [@](#): > > brazil84 harping on ‘no\_limit\_nigga’ to prove Trayvon’s nefariousness :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/885 "2012-03-31T16:39:52Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > **The Tao’s Revenge** , I was going for a funny. It’s what the dispatcher tells Zimmerman. > > But I agree that **brazil84** harping on ‘no\_limit\_nigga’ to prove Trayvon’s nefariousness is weaksauce. Trayvon had no juvenile record. Grills are a fashion statement. Check out this [post](http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/the-thuggification-of-trayvon-martin/) to see what I mean. Thank you for that link. It greatly shows the problems with **brazil84** ’s character assassination. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/886 "2012-03-31T16:45:46Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It’s not a matter of cowardice or courage – I simply have no interest in engaging with people whose style of debate is to pretend that I took a different position from the one I actually took. Except I didn’t do that. You tried to assassinate the character of an innocent child over a screen name, and I pointed out how stupid that is. Instead of engaging that you ran away. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/887 "2012-03-31T17:10:17Z")
There’s another factor in youthful black men and their “fashion choices”. And that is an actual need not to “stand out”, not to appear too “white”. Its a very ugly dilemma, you might not have a shred of “thug” instinct, but neither do you want to attract their attention. Because there are thugs, and they live where you live. And they are vicious, hateful and armed. Kind of like being an obvious “hippy” in 60’s Texas. But worse. Much, much worse. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/888 "2012-03-31T17:29:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > “brazil84 harping on ‘no\_limit\_nigga’ to prove Trayvon’s nefariousness” > :rolleyes: You did say it made him aggressive. I’m not sure how someone being a fan of a major hip-hop label makes them aggressive. Any inference you draw beyond “He likes music” is pure dumbassery.. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/889 "2012-03-31T17:40:27Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You did say it made him aggressive. Please show me where I said that it made him aggressive. Please quote me. Failing that, please admit that I said no such thing and apologize. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/890 "2012-03-31T17:45:34Z")
If I can say something to the **Rand** s, **DrDeth** s, **brazil** s, and anyone else accusing Team Trayvon of wanting to convict Zimmerman without a trial, or otherwise being “idiots” for jumping to conclusions. If you think America is up in arms because Zimmerman’s self-defense claim is questionable, then I nominate all of you for a 2012 Completely Missing the Fucking Point Award. Zimmerman profiled an unarmed, teenaged neighbor in his own neighborhood. He decided that this teenager was probably “on drugs,” was likely related to “a lot of break-ins,” and was one of those “assholes who always get away.” He was armed with a handgun, and he took his prejudices and his weapon into a confrontation of his own creation. That much, I think, is all beyond dispute. You may do your best to assassinate Trayvon’s character, or ascribe possible mitigating circumstances to the situation, but the reality is that Zimmerman profiled someone and got it horribly wrong. That, and that alone, is sufficient for most of us to declare him a complete shitstain. If being a complete shitstain were illegal; that is, if it were illegal to profile someone as a drugged-out asshole thief and hassle them in their own neighborhood, Zimmerman would have been arrested that night and we wouldn’t have 90 pages on the SDMB about it. But being a shitstain isn’t illegal. Profiling someone isn’t illegal, nor is confronting them with a handgun in your waistband. And I don’t think anyone here will claim it _should_ be. It’s frustrating, though, to watch someone act like a complete shitstain and then walk away from justice. It happens, I know it happens a lot, and there’s probably an element of RO here, but if any of you can’t at least empathize with that frustration, then that makes me question your decency. Zimmerman will probably get acquitted, if there’s even a trial, and then lose a civil suit. His life is going to suck for a long time because of this, and frankly, that’s probably sufficient punishment for being a shitstain. It’d be awesome, though, if his self-defense claim turned out to be obvious bullshit and he went to jail. So a lot of us have no problem letting this soap opera play out, and if we happen to root against the guy who’s undeniably a shitstain, you shouldn’t be at all surprised. In other words, your righteous position of “let’s wait for all the facts to come out” is misguided and pointless if it ultimately results in you defending a shitstain on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/891 "2012-03-31T17:49:25Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please show me where I said that it made him aggressive. Please quote me. Failing that, please admit that I said no such thing and apologize. > > Your choice. [QUOTE=brazil84] To me, if somebody chooses “no limit nigga” as a computer nickname, it suggest that\*\* this individual sees himself as aggressive\*\* and is proud of his affinity with African-American gangsta culture and all that entails – valuing cockiness, rebellion against authority, not shying away from violence, etc. \*\*I would say that someone who calls himself “no limit nigga” is more likely than the average person to break the law; to get into a fight; to go to jail; to shoot someone or to get shot himself. \*\* [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. I’ll admit that you didn’t say it made him aggressive, using that exact word. You only said that it suggests that he views himself as aggressive, and makes him more likely to engage in behaviors that any reasonable person would consider aggressive. How is “it would make him more likely to get into a fight” appreciably different from “it would make him more aggressive.” Do fans of No Limit Records get targeted more often by bullies or something? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/892 "2012-03-31T18:05:41Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > How is “it would make him more likely to get into a fight” appreciably different from “it would make him more aggressive.” There’s a difference between knowing that John Smith is more likely to be the sort of person who is aggressive and knowing that John Smith is indeed more aggressive than your average person. The former is a statistical generalization; the latter connotes specific knowledge about an individual person. There is also the problem of causation – your statement suggests that I am claiming that the nickname somehow causes the aggressiveness. Let me ask you this, are the following two statements equivalent: 1. Someone who is named “Sven” is more likely than your average person to have blond hair. 2. Being named “Sven” makes your hair lighter in color. Also, let me ask you this: Do you agree that a person whose self-chosen nickname is “no limit nigga” is more likely to be an aggressive person than your average person? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/893 "2012-03-31T18:12:39Z")
blahblahblahbullshitblah ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/894 "2012-03-31T18:16:22Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you agree that a person whose self-chosen nickname is “no limit nigga” is more likely to be an aggressive person than your average person? No, I think it makes them a music fan. I apologize for saying you said it made him aggressive. You said it makes him more likely to be aggressive. There is a difference, you’re right. It doesn’t make you any less clueless, though. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/895 "2012-03-31T18:18:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Also, let me ask you this: > > Do you agree that a person whose self-chosen nickname is “no limit nigga” is more likely to be an aggressive person than your average person? Answering for myself: No, I do not agree. I do think that you are using your own background, culture and understanding of the words to impart a meaning to them. The nickname imparts to you a specific “feeling” about the person based entirely on where **you** come from, **your** upbringing and **your** understanding of the words used. Further, I think that you have no idea whatsoever of the background and culture of the person who actually chose that nickname, and therefore you can have no idea whatsoever if the self-chosen nickname would make that person more likely to be aggressive. An example: If I had a screen nickname of “Psycho Killer”… Would it make a difference to your opinion of me based on that screen name alone if you knew that I enjoyed early 80’s music? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/896 "2012-03-31T18:19:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If you think America is up in arms because Zimmerman’s self-defense claim is questionable, then I nominate all of you for a 2012 Completely Missing the Fucking Point Award. The reason for America being “up in arms,” is an interesting question, but the answer to that question doesn’t change the facts that: 1. Some members of the public have made up their minds that Zimmerman is surely a murderer (Team Trayvon); 2. Some members of the public have made up their minds that Zimmerman is surely innocent (Team Zimmerman); 3. Everyone on Team Trayvon and Team Zimmerman is a bigoted, prejudiced, idiot. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman profiled an unarmed, teenaged neighbor in his own neighborhood. He decided that this teenager was probably “on drugs,” was likely related to “a lot of break-ins,” and was one of those “assholes who always get away.” He was armed with a handgun, and he took his prejudices and his weapon into a confrontation of his own creation. > > That much, I think, is all beyond dispute. You may do your best to assassinate Trayvon’s character, or ascribe possible mitigating circumstances to the situation, but the reality is that Zimmerman profiled someone and got it horribly wrong. Proof of the above, please. i.e. please show proof that (1) Zimmerman decided that Martin was probably a burglar; and (2) Martin was not in the community for illegal purposes. I think there is a decent chance that both of these points are correct. However, you are asserting that they are beyond dispute. So you must have iron-clad proof. Either that or you are a prejudiced, bigoted, idiot. Let’s see your proof. > [@](#): > > That, and that alone, is sufficient for most of us to declare him a complete shitstain. I don’t see why. Assuming that Zimmerman’s story is correct, he simply followed an outsider from his community and attempted to leave the situation before any trouble started. At worst that makes him a busybody. > [@](#): > > It’s frustrating, though, to watch someone act like a complete shitstain and then walk away from justice. I don’t see why. Again, assuming that Zimmerman’s story is correct, Martin wildly overreacted. Let me ask you this: Assuming Zimmerman’s story is correct, what would be a just result? > [@](#): > > It’d be awesome, though, if his self-defense claim turned out to be obvious bullshit and he went to jail. Why? Why are you (apparently) hoping that it will turn out that Zimmerman is lying? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/897 "2012-03-31T18:22:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > No, I think it makes them a music fan. > > I apologize for saying you said it made him aggressive. You said it makes him more likely to be aggressive. There is a difference, you’re right. Thank you. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t make you any less clueless, though. :shrug: I don’t have any way of proving it to you, since my interpretation of “no limit nigga” is based on my general knowledge and common sense. However, even ignoring that issue, my basic point stands about the alleged suspensions, evidence of theft, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/898 "2012-03-31T18:25:28Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > evidence of theft, etc. Please point out a credible cite that shows us the **evidence** of theft. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/899 "2012-03-31T18:27:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > :shrug: I don’t have any way of proving it to you, since my interpretation of “no limit nigga” is based on my general knowledge\*\* and common sense. > \*\* No. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/900 "2012-03-31T18:31:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you agree that a person whose self-chosen nickname is "no limit nigga["is more likely to be an aggressive person than your average person? No, because most of the time a black person uses nigga, it’s a synonym for dude or brother or homie or something like that. No limit could refer to affinity for Master P and the roster of artists on No Limit Records or maybe Trayvon had big dreams and thought there was nothing he couldn’t achieve. He did want to be a pilot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=46)