# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/921 "2012-03-31T20:06:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sheesh, go back and read my earlier posts in the thread. There is a rumor that Martin was caught with a large amount of ladies’ jewelry and a large screwdriver suitable for engaging in burglary. If a young man is in possession of such items, it’s evidence of theft. Duh. “There is a rumor” is not the same thing as “evidence of theft” I would put it to you that based on the other crap that is floating around about this case, the rumor is most likely unmitigated bullshit. That you would find these two terms synonymous is telling. Once again, it is crap like this (“There is a rumor” morphing into “evidence of theft”) that makes me call for an actual investigation by professionals. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/922 "2012-03-31T20:11:26Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > “There is a rumor” is not the same thing as “evidence of theft” I agree. But in this case, there is a rumor that there was evidence of theft. Can you really not grasp this relationship? Can you really not understand that in discussing unsubstantiated claims, the word “evidence” might properly be used, depending of course on the context? > [@](#): > > That you would find these two terms synonymous is telling. Please quote me where I have done so. Failing that, please admit that I did no such thing and apologize. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/923 "2012-03-31T21:05:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > My opinions only: > > 1. This could have been avoided if Zimmerman had used reason and constraint to begin with. He should have simply called the cops and let them handle it. But the dumbass wanted to be Clint Eastwood and made the stupid decision to follow Martin. Indeed, sir, I agree wholeheartedly! > [@](#): > > 1. Even though the whole situation could have been avoided had Zimmerman exercised common sense, I have no doubt Martin attacked Zimmerman. I also believe Zimmerman felt his life was in danger. Well, Ok. Room for disagreement here. > [@](#): > > 1. Zimmerman was correct in using his weapon to stop Martin. It was a good shoot. Ummm… really? You seem so certain… > [@](#): > > 1. Trayvon Martin was a thug. Had he not been killed by Zimmerman, he would have been a career criminal the rest of his life. Martin would have contributed nothing to society. His death is no loss. Just anther thug. I am awestruck by your ability to draw us into your little charade and make us believe you were serious. Nice one, Crafter. Unless of course you are just sampling the experience of being a troll. Or…wait… you aren’t serious, are you? :dubious: :eek: Being a passionate proponent of honesty and standing by one’s convictions, without any consideration of what exactly those convictions might be, I am awestruck by your willingness to stand up and shine a light directly on the vileness of your private mental processes for all to see and be sickened by. In fact it might even be _more_ admirable when one’s convictions are so clearly warped, sad, irrational and cruel, exposing one to the pity and revulsion of those to whom one reveals oneself. That’s either guts or stupidity, and I’ll give you the benefit of assuming its guts. (Or perhaps it is kinder to assume stupidity?) In either case, my sympathies, sir, for the crushing burden of having to daily navigate the sorry business of dwelling inside your wretched mind and heart. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/924 "2012-03-31T21:10:42Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > 1. Trayvon Martin was a thug. Had he not been killed by Zimmerman, he would have been a career criminal the rest of his life. Martin would have contributed nothing to society. His death is no loss. Just anther thug. I know you qualified this as your opinion and all, but what the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/925 "2012-03-31T21:13:18Z")
National spokesman for Santorum Toothpaste. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/926 "2012-03-31T21:13:38Z")
Many years ago I came home around 4:30am to find what looked like my neighbor and two other guys working on his car. I walked over to see if I could be of any assistance and saw that it wasn’t my neighbor at all, the 3 guys were stealing his car. I told them (more or less) WTF - GTFO. The lookout pulled out a tire thumper and said “what now, bitch!” I charged at him and he was so surprised that I wasn’t pissing myself that I managed to get the club away from him and proceeded to very thoroughly “check his inflation.” His accomplices ran, and I realized I’d have a lot of problems if I beat him to death so I gave him a few swift kicks in the ribs and made some kind of ultimatum and he limped away as fast as he could clutching his abdomen. I really don’t think I’m a busybody or vigilante or wannabe cop. At that moment I didn’t even fear serious injury or death. I was just hopped up on adrenaline and pissed off and beating the crap out of this guy with his own weapon really appealed to me. Could I have screamed like a little girl, run away, called the cops, waited 2-3 hours for them to show up, given a statement, etc.? Sure. Retrospectively things could have gone better, but I don’t think I did anything wrong though. It’s a different situation with different details and I know what happened and what was going through my head because I was there. Had I called the cops after the fact and they tracked this guy down someone could have just as easily said my story was too convenient to be true and people don’t really say “what now, bitch” so I must have really been out looking for hate crimes to commit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/927 "2012-03-31T21:19:48Z")
Did you mean to post that in another thread? Was Martin stealing a car? Are you drunk? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/928 "2012-03-31T21:23:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree. But in this case, there is a rumor that there was evidence of theft. Can you really not grasp this relationship? You did not say “there is a rumor that there was evidence of theft”. You said “evidence of theft”. Can you not see that there is no relationship there in your original statement? > [@brazil84](#): > > Please quote me where I have done so. Failing that, please admit that I did no such thing and apologize. > > Your choice. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post > > However, even ignoring that issue, my basic point stands about the alleged suspensions, evidence of theft, etc. So your basic point stands about… evidence of theft. You did not qualify this as a rumor about a theft. You stated that there was evidence of theft. You were wrong to do so. So.. no apology from me for simply pointing out that your words meant what they said. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/929 "2012-03-31T21:23:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, I have no idea what your point is here. It means that like **Randy** , you rely heavily on a bullshit “artful dodger” technique wherein you make numerous statements that provide a clear implication of where your sympathies lie and what your beliefs are—but (unlike the Klan-reject Neanderthal **Crafter\_Man** , who’s just stupid enough to admit his actual beliefs) you’re careful never to state them outright, which frees you to play “gotcha” games of where’d-I-say-that and cite-or-apologize whenever someone connects the dots. It’s painfully transparent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/930 "2012-03-31T21:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Many years ago I came home around 4:30am… Violence never gets less evil, it only becomes more necessary. No doubt we both agree that violence to protect the innocent and harmless qualifies as necessary. Whether violence to protect property is necessary is a decision each must make on his own. I’ve long since made mine. There is nothing anyone owns that I would hurt them to take, and nothing I own I would hurt someone to keep. I make no claim that mine is the superior ethic, only that it is mine. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/931 "2012-03-31T21:29:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Zimmerman will probably get acquitted, if there’s even a trial, and then lose a civil suit. Point of order. Doesn’t the SYG law, if found to be operative in the case, confer immunity from civil action? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/932 "2012-03-31T21:34:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You did not say “there is a rumor that there was evidence of theft”. You said “evidence of theft”. Lol, so every time somebody uses the phrase “evidence of theft,” they are asserting that there is evidence of theft? Anyway, here is the actual exchange: > [@brazil84](#): > > Well a lot of bad stuff is coming out about Martin. **It’s not clear how much of it is true.** But if it’s all true, it raises the probability that he indeed threatened to kill and attacked Zimmerman (as Zimmerman is apparently claiming). (my bolding) > [@saoirse](#): > > Sorry? What “bad stuff” is coming out about Martin? > [@brazil84](#): > > That he was suspended from school 3 times; that his computer nickname for himself was “no-limit nigga”; that he had gotten into an altercation with a school bus driver; that he was caught with a substantial amount of ladies’ jewelry in his bag. > > ( **And yes, none of this stuff has been substantiated at this point.** But if it is, then it raises the probability that Zimmerman’s story is true.) (my bolding) And then later: > [@brazil84](#): > > However, even ignoring that issue, my basic point stands about the **alleged** suspensions, evidence of theft, etc. (my bolding). In short, it was always extremely clear that I was talking about unsubstantiated allegations. And yet you insisted on telling the lie that I was equating “there is a rumor” with “evidence of theft” I have my own rules of debate, and one rule is that I don’t engage with people who insist on misrepresenting my position. Goodbye, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/933 "2012-03-31T21:37:24Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Point of order. Doesn’t the SYG law, if found to be operative in the case, confer immunity from civil action? Well that’s a bit of a catch 22. “If found operative in this case” by whom? I think Zimmerman can be sued in civil court, but: \*(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1). \* But who knows, the money collected from all the licensing fees on the trademarked “I am Trayvon” items may make the penalties for the loss of the case just a drop in the bucket. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/934 "2012-03-31T21:37:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There is nothing anyone owns that I would hurt them to take, and nothing I own I would hurt someone to keep. I make no claim that mine is the superior ethic, only that it is mine. The one fly in the ointment here is that, as with the robbery/murder of the two British tourists in Florida recently. they may take the goods you so willingly surrender and shoot you afterwards anyway, either on the old principle that dead men tell no tales or just for the sheer hell of it. I get that you’re willing to take that chance. Me, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/935 "2012-03-31T21:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Lol, so every time somebody uses the phrase “evidence of theft,” they are asserting that there is evidence of theft? In this context, yes. You said there was evidence of theft. I took that to mean that you believed there was evidence of theft. Not a big stretch. Words do have meanings you know. I guess what you meant to say was “there were rumors of theft”. Two quite different things. > [@brazil84](#): > > Goodbye, liar. And goodbye to you. Good luck with your ongoing communication problems. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/936 "2012-03-31T21:50:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It means that like **Randy** , you rely heavily on a bullshit “artful dodger” technique wherein you make numerous statements that provide a clear implication of where your sympathies lie and what your beliefs are—but (unlike the Klan-reject Neanderthal **Crafter\_Man** , who’s just stupid enough to admit his actual beliefs) you’re careful never to state them outright, Nonsense, I am making no secret at all about my position: 1. At this time, I have not reached a conclusion as to Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence. The most important piece of evidence for me will be the physical evidence if Zimmerman’s alleged injuries. Also of importance will be the witness statements. 2. Zimmerman is more likely than not an asshole wannabe cop loser and it would not surprise me at all if it turns out that he did not have an adequate basis to open fire. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if his actions were justified. 3. Similarly, it would not surprise me at all if Martin turns out to be a thug. On the other hand, the evidence of his character is sketchy and it would not surprise me if it turns out that he was an ordinary high school kid with minor disciplinary problems. 4. Anyone (in the general public) who has reached a firm conclusion about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence is some combination of prejudiced, bigoted, and stupid. > [@](#): > > It’s painfully transparent. No, what’s painfully transparent is that (ETA: many) people on Team Trayvon are extremely eager to attack anyone who questions their position. Even to the extent of setting up strawmen to attack. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/937 "2012-03-31T21:58:05Z")
He’s just asking questions! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/938 "2012-03-31T22:40:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In this context, yes. You said there was evidence of theft. I took that to mean that you believed there was evidence of theft. Not a big stretch. Words do have meanings you know. I guess what you meant to say was “there were rumors of theft”. Two quite different things. > > And goodbye to you. Good luck with your ongoing communication problems. Well, join the club of people that Brazzy has decided he “won’t engage” because they “broke his rules”. We have hats, weekly meetings and a bowling league. A while ago he informed me I was a member of the club which I found hysterical because I honestly didn’t even remember him or the spat that caused this. I since found out. It was in one of the Israel/Pslestinian threads where he was arguing that because of their birth rates Jewish settlers on the West Bank would soon outnumber the Palestinians on the West Bank and he got angry at me for showing him how absurd that was. Yes, he is that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/939 "2012-03-31T23:48:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It means that like **Randy** , you rely heavily on a bullshit “artful dodger” technique wherein you make numerous statements that provide a clear implication of where your sympathies lie and what your beliefs are—but (unlike the Klan-reject Neanderthal **Crafter\_Man** , who’s just stupid enough to admit his actual beliefs) you’re careful never to state them outright, which frees you to play “gotcha” games of where’d-I-say-that and cite-or-apologize whenever someone connects the dots. It’s painfully transparent. Wrong as ever. I have spoken in very simple language about my position here, but obviously my language wasn’t simple enough for you. I’ll try again. You and others read news stories and then create a narrative of what you think happened that night. I don’t do that. I am simply happy to wait and let our society’s truth-finding function do it’s thing. So, it is not the case that I think Zimmerman’s actions were justified or not a crime or anything like that. I simply have not created my own personal version of events, so I have not taken a position on the ultimate issues. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/940 "2012-04-01T00:25:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You and others read news stories and then create a narrative of what you think happened that night. I don’t do that. I am simply happy to wait and let our society’s truth-finding function do it’s thing. Would you agree that this shit-storm began because weeks after the shooting, it appeared very clear that our society’s “truth finding function” appeared to be doing nothing of the sort, and seemed rather to be more of a “sweeping under the rug” function? I agree that an investigation by competent authorities is very needed, and the rampant speculation (on all sides) has done nothing to shed light on what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=48)