# Are you the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 29, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243 "2019-06-29T00:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/221 "2019-07-20T21:07:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Again I keep pointing back to what that paragraph I quoted said, you aren’t getting the argument here. The point is what they are all ultimately made of, you aren’t listening. It doesn’t matter what “appears” to be so,since there is no discrete water or key, it’s a result of something else. It doesn’t exist on it’s own. like if you break down a cracker you won’t find any “crackerness” to it or essence. That’s the point being made by them. You’re glossing over the important part too quickly, there. You say _it doesn’t matter what “appears” to be so, since there is no discrete water or key._ And that’s where I’m interrupting, to ask: if it doesn’t matter, then why the heck do they keep drinking the water and putting the key in the lock? I get why _I’m_ drinking water and putting keys in locks, and not the reverse; it’s because I think it matters. But I don’t get why someone who says that it _doesn’t_ matter would act the same way — unless, well, they say it, but of course don’t actually mean it, since, hey, sometimes people say things without meaning them. That’s the best way I know how “to address what they say”: by pointing out that, if they really did believe what you say, they wouldn’t act the way that I do; but, of course, they _do_ act the way I do, because I’m, y’know, right. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/222 "2019-07-25T18:44:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re glossing over the important part too quickly, there. > > You say _it doesn’t matter what “appears” to be so, since there is no discrete water or key._ And that’s where I’m interrupting, to ask: if it doesn’t matter, then why the heck do they keep drinking the water and putting the key in the lock? > > I get why _I’m_ drinking water and putting keys in locks, and not the reverse; it’s because I think it matters. But I don’t get why someone who says that it _doesn’t_ matter would act the same way — unless, well, they say it, but of course don’t actually mean it, since, hey, sometimes people say things without meaning them. > > That’s the best way I know how “to address what they say”: by pointing out that, if they really did believe what you say, they wouldn’t act the way that I do; but, of course, they _do_ act the way I do, because I’m, y’know, right. It’s more like thinking in regards to death and the like. Like in the case of people, there is no core or discrete essence to who we are as a person. Where we grow up tends to impact how we live and who we become. There isn’t a “soul” or core aspect to us. I keep asking you to address the paragraph I quoted but you fail to do so. I keep telling you that a key into a lock or water is irrelevant to the main point being made here, that (as far as I can tell) they liken the universe to an ocean and phenomenon as waves. In that what appears to be separate is really just one thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/223 "2019-07-25T22:07:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It’s more like thinking in regards to death and the like. > > Like in the case of people, there is no core or discrete essence to who we are as a person. Where we grow up tends to impact how we live and who we become. There isn’t a “soul” or core aspect to us. > > I keep asking you to address the paragraph I quoted but you fail to do so. I keep telling you that a key into a lock or water is irrelevant to the main point being made here, that (as far as I can tell) they liken the universe to an ocean and phenomenon as waves. In that what appears to be separate is really just one thing. Yes, you keep telling me that it’s irrelevant; but, see, I still disagree. Say a guy says “that what appears to be separate is really just one thing.” Say he elaborates: “It doesn’t matter what “appears” to be so, since there is no discrete water or key”, he says. Maybe he’s right; but maybe he’s lying or mistaken. Say I watch that guy for a while. Say, too, that he sure does act like what appears to be separate actually _is_ separate: he routinely drinks water, as if it doesn’t just appear to be water but in fact _is_ water; and he refuses to drink poison, as if (a) it appears to be poison instead of water, and (b) it truly _is_ poison instead of water. I watch him, over and over, as he unlocks a door with a key; and, if he’s ever handed what appears to be a coin and not a key, he reacts as if it really _is_ a coin and not a key: swapping it out for what, y’know, appears to be a key. _Now hold on a moment,_ I say to the guy. _If you’re right, instead of being a liar or mistaken, then why do you act like what appears to be so is so? I get why I drink what appears to be water, and refuse what appears to be poison; but why the heck do you do that?_ And his reply might be “oh, you caught me; I didn’t really mean that silly thing I’d said; you can tell, because, see, I act sensibly.” If that’s his reply, then the discussion is of course at an end. So . . . is that his reply? Was he just lying or mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/224 "2019-07-26T18:29:22Z")
> [@the guy that has Machineforce all plexed up](#): > > …The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself… … some woo-merchant on the internet posting mystical-sounding bullshit is the universe wanking itself… ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/225 "2019-07-29T00:29:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Yes, you keep telling me that it’s irrelevant; but, see, I still disagree. > > Say a guy says “that what appears to be separate is really just one thing.” Say he elaborates: “It doesn’t matter what “appears” to be so, since there is no discrete water or key”, he says. Maybe he’s right; but maybe he’s lying or mistaken. > > Say I watch that guy for a while. Say, too, that he sure does act like what appears to be separate actually _is_ separate: he routinely drinks water, as if it doesn’t just appear to be water but in fact _is_ water; and he refuses to drink poison, as if (a) it appears to be poison instead of water, and (b) it truly _is_ poison instead of water. I watch him, over and over, as he unlocks a door with a key; and, if he’s ever handed what appears to be a coin and not a key, he reacts as if it really _is_ a coin and not a key: swapping it out for what, y’know, appears to be a key. > > _Now hold on a moment,_ I say to the guy. _If you’re right, instead of being a liar or mistaken, then why do you act like what appears to be so is so? I get why I drink what appears to be water, and refuse what appears to be poison; but why the heck do you do that?_ And his reply might be “oh, you caught me; I didn’t really mean that silly thing I’d said; you can tell, because, see, I act sensibly.” > > If that’s his reply, then the discussion is of course at an end. > > So . . . is that his reply? Was he just lying or mistaken? > [@](#): > > What it means? > > Atoms are not discrete balls floating in space. They are more point-like excitations of a field. (Think of standing waves in a body of water.) > > There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole. You are not a small and lonely being lost in a foreign universe; you are a direct expression of the whole of the universe as it currently is; you (as everything else) is a brief movement in the dance of nature. You do not exist independent of the perceived outside; outside and inside are two sides of the same coin. > > The seed is no different from the tree. They are the same thing viewed from different perspectives in time. Birth and death are really no different; waking life is really no different from dreamless sleep. > > The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself. > > The ocean waves; the planet rotates; the sun shines; the heart beats; the stomach digests; the brain thinks; the body acts. These events are no different in nature. The thinker of thoughts is the waver of oceans, not a little man behind the eyes of the body; the waver of the ocean is spontaneous, as is the thinker of thoughts. Nature is not being moved; nature flows without direction; nature is not concerened with tomorrow, for it is dancing today. > > Look at a tree, see how it moves in the wind. > > Notice your thoughts arising, even the thought “I am thinking.” > > Notice that the movement of the tree and the movement of thought are two expressions of the same thing. > > Stop labeling the tree and yourself; notice that all separation is a consequence of the labeling process; allow all boundaries to dissolve. > > Feel the swaying of the tree as much as you feel the arising thoughts and the other bodily sensations. > > Feel intuitively that what you refer to as I is a form in the universe experiencing itself. I feel I have to repost this to underscore the point being made. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/226 "2019-07-29T02:03:11Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I feel I have to repost this to underscore the point being made. …I don’t get it; I see _no_ point worth mentioning. I see a distinction without a difference. The start: _“Atoms are not discrete balls floating in space. They are more point-like excitations of a field.”_ Uh, okay. So what? I’d drink water, and refuse poison, if their atoms were like unto discrete balls; I’d _also_ drink water, and refuse poison, if their atoms were more like point-like excitations of a field. I don’t _care_ whether they’re discrete balls or point-like excitations. Why would I care? Why should I? It goes on: _“There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole.”_ If there _were_ objects of solid substance that are discrete things, then I’d use a steel key to unlock a door and not use a gold coin in that attempt — but if there _aren’t_ discrete-thing objects of solid substance, then I’d… …wait, what _would_ that mean? As far as I can tell, the folks who say this still act like steel keys are solid objects that unlock doors, and they still act like gold coins are solid objects that _don’t_ unlock doors, as if those keys and those coins are discrete things (and as if doors are solid objects that need to be unlocked, because the people who say that There Are No Discrete Things Or Objects Of Solid Substance still act like physical barriers are solid-object obstacles that block their way). Let me just stop here for a moment to touch base with you: those two points there, what _difference_ do you think they’d make? If I disagreed with them, I’d (a) drink water and refuse poison while thinking they were different; and I’d (b) use a steel key instead of a gold coin when unlocking a door, thinking they were discrete solid objects. But if I _agreed_ with them, I’d — act the same way? _Why would either of those points matter at all?_ Like, even a little bit? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/227 "2019-08-07T04:52:04Z")
Because if either of those were true then it would mean that there is no you or me, that there is no “me” which means that there is no point in doing anything at all since there is no “doer” of the deed, it would all just be the same thing. To use their analogy it would just be the wave on the ocean. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/228 "2019-08-07T06:01:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because if either of those were true then it would mean that there is no you or me, that there is no “me” which means that there is no point in doing anything at all since there is no “doer” of the deed, it would all just be the same thing. _Why?_ I genuinely don’t get how you can think that follows. I just said — right there, in the part you’re replying to — that I’d drink water, and refuse poison, if their atoms are discrete balls floating in space; and that I’d drink water, and refuse poison, if their atoms are point-like excitations of a field. Either way, it’s as if they’re _not_ “the same thing”. If a steel key and a gold coin are “discrete things or objects of solid substance”, then it makes sense that a guy would use one but not the other to unlock a door. But if a guy (a) tells me that there are no discrete things or objects of solid substance, and he (b) still uses the key, but not the coin, to unlock a door? Either way, he’s still acting as if they’re _not_ “the same thing”. Why? _Why would he do that?_ You attribute these views to various people; why, then, do they still drink water and refuse poison? Why do they still use keys, and not coins, to unlock doors? Why don’t they just shrug and say “it’s all just the same thing” and promptly get it wrong? I can of course explain it by figuring they don’t actually believe what you say they do; but how the heck can _you_ explain it? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/229 "2019-08-08T04:47:46Z")
Well according to the paragraph I linked birth and death are not different from each other, they are two sides of the same coin. I mean I know on the macro level that steel is not gold, but again I think they are referring to the metaphor of the ocean and the wave. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/230 "2019-08-08T05:49:32Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Well according to the paragraph I linked birth and death are not different from each other, they are two sides of the same coin. I mean I know on the macro level that steel is not gold, but again I think they are referring to the metaphor of the ocean and the wave. Yeah, see, that’s sort of the whole thing, there: on _one_ level, in a _metaphorical_ sense, “it would all just be the same thing.” But on another level, there’s a _literal_ sense in which folks who push that metaphor quickly grant that, heh, no, of course it’s _not_ all the same thing: place a glass of water and a glass of poison before such a guy and he’ll say that, oh, hey, metaphorically they’re the same thing, but actually they’re quite different. Wasting away behind bars, a guy who sneers at that metaphor will _actually_ use a key to unlock the door. Wasting away behind bars, a guy who does a great job of talking up that metaphor will — still _actually_ use a key to unlock the door; it’s just that he’ll do it while saying there’s a metaphorical sense in which the gold coin and the steel key aren’t different from each other (but adding that, yeah, okay, in _another_ sense, they of course _are_ different from each other, and he acts accordingly). And that doesn’t seem like an especially interesting position. You said this boils down to saying that “there is no you or me, that there is no “me” which means that there is no point in doing anything at all since there is no “doer” of the deed, it would all just be the same thing.” But make sure to note that the _actual_ position, the _uninteresting_ position, is this: in one sense, there is no ‘you’ or ‘me’; but in another sense, there _is_. In one sense, there’s no point in doing anything at all; but in another sense, there of course still _is_. In one sense, we can metaphorically say there’s no ‘doer’ of the deed and it’s all just the same thing; but in another sense, heh, no, of course none of that is actually _true,_ can you even imagine? _That can be shrugged at._ ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/231 "2019-08-12T10:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole. You are not a small and lonely being lost in a foreign universe; you are a direct expression of the whole of the universe as it currently is; you (as everything else) is a brief movement in the dance of nature. You do not exist independent of the perceived outside; outside and inside are two sides of the same coin. > > The seed is no different from the tree. They are the same thing viewed from different perspectives in time. Birth and death are really no different; waking life is really no different from dreamless sleep. > > The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself. > > The ocean waves; the planet rotates; the sun shines; the heart beats; the stomach digests; the brain thinks; the body acts. These events are no different in nature. The thinker of thoughts is the waver of oceans, not a little man behind the eyes of the body; the waver of the ocean is spontaneous, as is the thinker of thoughts. Nature is not being moved; nature flows without direction; nature is not concerened with tomorrow, for it is dancing today. The idea here is that since everything is just rearranging from already existing matter than you are the universe, that everything “we” see and experience is all just one big thing. Again this comes from what we know in that everything around us is just rearrangement of existing matter and that nothing exists independently of anything else. Like it is saying that there is no little man in our heads that is the thinker, it’s all the same thing, IE the universe. I need an address to that because according to such logic there is no difference from poison or water. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/232 "2019-08-12T10:44:33Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > The idea here is that since everything is just rearranging from already existing matter than you are the universe, that everything “we” see and experience is all just one big thing. Again this comes from what we know in that everything around us is just rearrangement of existing matter and that nothing exists independently of anything else. Like it is saying that there is no little man in our heads that is the thinker, it’s all the same thing, IE the universe. > > I need an address to that because according to such logic there is no difference from poison or water. But the people who you say use such logic _do_ act like there’s a difference between poison and water. If you put a glass of each before a guy like that, he stops joking around and breaks off all There Is No Difference talk while getting it right. (And, again: if he’s locked behind bars, and asks you to hand him the steel key, and you instead give him a gold coin or a handful of sand, he’ll explain to you that, uh, no, see, you got that wrong; There Is A Difference.) You say those are just rearrangements of existing matter. _So what?_ If a guy says the water and the poison _aren’t_ rearrangements of existing matter, I’ll opt for the water and not the poison while pointing out that There Is A Difference; but if a guy tells me the water and the poison _are_ rearrangements of existing matter, I’ll — opt for the water and not the poison, and point out that There Is A Difference. So what’s the relevance? If someone tells me the key and the coin and the sand are all rearrangements of existing matter, and so I hand him the coin or the sand when he’s locked behind bars, he’s not going to say _“oh, yes, thank you; that’s correct, because, after all, There Is No Difference.”_ He’ll say, _“no, that’s wrong; give me the other one; There Is A Difference.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/233 "2019-08-16T02:57:15Z")
I don’t really know what they will say, but they would likely say they are already free since they are everything. The idea being that there is no essence or soul or unchanging core to which there can be called a self, just brain activity that we take to be a unified self. If there is no core essence or you, then you must be the universe. The idea here being that there is no separate and atomized “you”, just a body which is a collection of parts, which are also part, etc, etc. You are on about the key and lock and missing the overall point being made by the paragraph, which says you are the key, the lock, everything, hence the “you are the universe”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/234 "2019-08-16T10:47:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I don’t really know what they will say, but they would likely say they are already free since they are everything. You’re skipping the part about the poison. Why don’t they say **It Makes No Difference** (or: **I Am Everything** ) and drink poison instead of water? If you’re right, and they actually believed all of this, they’d have knocked back a nice tall glass of poison by now… …but they _haven’t_. They talk like they would; but then they _don’t?_ How do you explain that? I know how _I’d_ explain that; I’d say “that’s not what they actually believe; they believe there _is_ a difference between a glass of poison and a glass of water, which explains why they haven’t all poisoned themselves yet.” If you think they _do_ believe this, then explain why they aren’t dead yet: shouldn’t they, upon looking at water and then at poison and then back at the water and back at the poison, shrug and say, “what’s the difference?” How do they survive? > [@](#): > > You are on about the key and lock and missing the overall point being made by the paragraph, which says you are the key, the lock, everything, hence the “you are the universe”. You are on about what they _say_; I’m asking you to watch what they _do_. Watch one live his life for a while; what does he _do_ when facing a locked door? I don’t care what he _says_; he’s free to _say_ there’s no difference between a key and a coin and a handful of sand, people _say_ all sorts of stuff without being right. What does he _do?_ Does he say “it makes no difference” and try using the coin? Does he say “it makes no difference” and try using the sand? Or does he, _for some reason,_ use the key? What does he _do_ when given a choice between water and poison? Does he say that it makes no difference, and then drink the poison as readily as he would the water? Or does he, _for some reason,_ drink the water? If so: WHAT’S THAT REASON? If not: WHY ISN’T HE DEAD YET? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/235 "2019-08-17T17:31:16Z")
I don’t know what they would choose, I can’t really ask them that. What I am getting at is that the main point here is there being no separate and atomized “you” to point to. [https://medium.com/dharma-talk/does-the-self-exist-22a2c3c847bb](https://medium.com/dharma-talk/does-the-self-exist-22a2c3c847bb) From the first link: > [@](#): > > “what I had was an inner solidity and security, that a was conveyed by what? The brain and all I’d learned to that point, but the brain has to deliver its knowledge to my body.” This is also to explain what is meant by you are the universe, though probably better than the first two.: [https://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/writings/is-the-self-an-illusion-do-i-exist/](https://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/writings/is-the-self-an-illusion-do-i-exist/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/236 "2019-08-18T05:48:39Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I don’t know what they would choose, I can’t really ask them that. You don’t actually need to ask them. I mean, by all means, _do,_ if you ever get the chance; but until then, just ask _yourself_ this: the guy who makes these odd claims, what’s he living on? Is he routinely drinking water — or if you will, milk; and maybe the occasional cappuccino, with a little cinammon on top? _How has he not died yet?_ Each day that he sensibly drinks something nourishing, he’s choosing to drink _that_ instead of drinking something _else_. How does he keep making the right choice? Why hasn’t he shrugged, and said It’s All The Same, and opted for a nice tall glass of poison _even once?_ What prompts him, every time, for years or even decades, to act like there’s a difference? He’s racked up the same win-loss record as me; I’ve done it by figuring that there’s a difference between water and poison; how has _he_ done it? Again, yes, ask him, if you can; but if you _can’t,_ then ask yourself: why does he act like I do? It makes perfect sense if he thinks those are separate and distinguishable from each other, such that one is to be refused and the other one accepted. Does it make any sense if he _doesn’t_ actually believe there’s a difference? (Does he eat sand by the handful? Does he eat his own feces? Ask him when you can; but don’t you _already_ suspect that, no, while he surely gets thousands of chances to err, he somehow keeps managing to conclude that a nice salad or whatever greatly differs from — and is preferable to — the alternatives he rules out?) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/237 "2019-08-18T06:29:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You don’t actually need to ask them. I mean, by all means, _do,_ if you ever get the chance; but until then, just ask _yourself_ this: the guy who makes these odd claims, what’s he living on? Is he routinely drinking water — or if you will, milk; and maybe the occasional cappuccino, with a little cinammon on top? > > _How has he not died yet?_ Each day that he sensibly drinks something nourishing, he’s choosing to drink _that_ instead of drinking something _else_. How does he keep making the right choice? Why hasn’t he shrugged, and said It’s All The Same, and opted for a nice tall glass of poison _even once?_ What prompts him, every time, for years or even decades, to act like there’s a difference? > > He’s racked up the same win-loss record as me; I’ve done it by figuring that there’s a difference between water and poison; how has _he_ done it? Again, yes, ask him, if you can; but if you _can’t,_ then ask yourself: why does he act like I do? > > It makes perfect sense if he thinks those are separate and distinguishable from each other, such that one is to be refused and the other one accepted. Does it make any sense if he _doesn’t_ actually believe there’s a difference? > > (Does he eat sand by the handful? Does he eat his own feces? Ask him when you can; but don’t you _already_ suspect that, no, while he surely gets thousands of chances to err, he somehow keeps managing to conclude that a nice salad or whatever greatly differs from — and is preferable to — the alternatives he rules out?) My fucking god dude, do you not get it? If Machinaforce was trapped in a cell, of course he would ask for the key. And then he would go back on his BS obsession, because he cannot think straight. You are embarrassing yourself by humoring him and also doing damage by enabling his mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/238 "2019-08-18T16:05:37Z")
In the light of day, that last post was intemperate. Apologies, TOWP, I shouldn’t have let this thread get under my skin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/239 "2019-08-18T17:10:47Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > In the light of day, that last post was intemperate. Apologies, TOWP, I shouldn’t have let this thread get under my skin. Oh, no offense taken, whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/240 "2019-08-19T04:45:31Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > My fucking god dude, do you not get it? If Machinaforce was trapped in a cell, of course he would ask for the key. And then he would go back on his BS obsession, because he cannot think straight. You are embarrassing yourself by humoring him and also doing damage by enabling his mental illness. More like not getting at the central part or looking at the last link that I posted. The idea here is that what we take to be separate and independently existing entities are not so, but rather all made of the same fundamental materials. Nothing has an essence or exists in some sort of atomized way but is made up of parts. So what you think is some unified and unchanging whole is just a collection of parts. We don’t exist separate from the universe, we are the universe (made up of the same things as all things), and there is no little man or soul riding around that we can call US. The poison and water analogy falls flat since the question is more about selfhood. If there is no separate and unchanging core to call you then it is all YOU. That’s what I understand their argument to be at least. Like I said, the last link I gave shows more about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243.md?page=13)