# Are you the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 29, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243 "2019-06-29T00:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/161 "2019-07-09T20:23:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > The point they are getting at is that you are the ocean, not the wave. If you are the ocean then nothing you do matters because it’s all “you”. There are no friends, good, bad, anything because it’s just “one”. It renders life utterly pointless if there is no “you” or “Actor” doing deeds. Again, this is meaningless. If I am the universe, then I am the wave too. Being part of the universe doesn’t mean “I” don’t exist. Being part of the universe means “I” do exist. Read what **AHunter3** says. The fact that we are connected means we both exist. Because we are connected - not the same thing, connected. ‘I am connected to the rest of the universe, therefore I don’t exist, and therefore everything is pointless’ contains too many logical errors to be useful. Yes, I am connected to the universe. Therefore, both I and the universe exist. If there is no difference, then there is no difference between enlightenment and samsara, and any discussion of the difference is wrong from the outset. If the universe is enlightened, then I am enlightened. If the universe is samsara, then if I become enlightened I will no longer be part of the universe. I guess I am done with the thread. If you want to be miserable, go ahead. Just don’t blame it on the Buddhists - they already got enough troubles. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/162 "2019-07-10T01:54:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again, this is meaningless. If I am the universe, then I am the wave too. > > Being part of the universe doesn’t mean “I” don’t exist. Being part of the universe means “I” do exist. Read what **AHunter3** says. > > The fact that we are connected means we both exist. Because we are connected - not the same thing, connected. > > ‘I am connected to the rest of the universe, therefore I don’t exist, and therefore everything is pointless’ contains too many logical errors to be useful. Yes, I am connected to the universe. Therefore, both I and the universe exist. > > If there is no difference, then there is no difference between enlightenment and samsara, and any discussion of the difference is wrong from the outset. If the universe is enlightened, then I am enlightened. If the universe is samsara, then if I become enlightened I will no longer be part of the universe. > > I guess I am done with the thread. If you want to be miserable, go ahead. Just don’t blame it on the Buddhists - they already got enough troubles. > > Regards, > Shodan Actually that’s not right because the point being made is that there is no I or self, or ego. That’s what the second paragraph was illustrating. There is no "you’ just the universe, which is what is being said here. Saying there is a “you” implies a sort of separate independent existence. So when you are using “I” and “you” in your explanation you are missing the point. My problem is that I don’t know a way around that part. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/163 "2019-07-10T01:56:03Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Well, now you know why the entirety of That Which Is, the universe, bothered to be all this other shit and have diverse experiences. None of what I said really explains the “why” all that much. A this gets at some point about being mistaken if you believe you are an individual consciousness: [https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289760168-The-Most-Misunderstood-Buddhist-Story-The-Tiger-and-the-Strawberry.html?success=1](https://anandbhatt.skyrock.mobi/3289760168-The-Most-Misunderstood-Buddhist-Story-The-Tiger-and-the-Strawberry.html?success=1) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/164 "2019-07-10T02:04:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Actually that’s not right because the point being made is that there is no I or self, or ego. That’s what the second paragraph was illustrating. There is no "you’ just the universe, which is what is being said here. Saying there is a “you” implies a sort of separate independent existence. So when you are using “I” and “you” in your explanation you are missing the point. My problem is that I don’t know a way around that part. That is, as you say, your problem. It’s not, as I say, a problem for me. Which makes perfect sense, if you and I _aren’t_ one. But if you and I _are_ one…? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/165 "2019-07-10T02:08:06Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Actually that’s not right because the point being made is that there is no I or self, or ego. That’s what the second paragraph was illustrating. There is no "you’ just the universe, which is what is being said here. Saying there is a “you” implies a sort of separate independent existence. So when you are using “I” and “you” in your explanation you are missing the point. My problem is that I don’t know a way around that part. That is _profoundly_ idiotic. It is like saying that there is no such thing as a tire because it is a part of a car, or there is no such thing as a spring because it is a part of a clock, or there is no such thing as a finger because it is a part of a hand, or there is no such thing as a star because it is a part of a galaxy ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/166 "2019-07-10T03:25:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > That is _profoundly_ idiotic. It is like saying that there is no such thing as a tire because it is a part of a car, or there is no such thing as a spring because it is a part of a clock, or there is no such thing as a finger because it is a part of a hand, or there is no such thing as a star because it is a part of a galaxy BEcause it is fundamentally"cut from the same cloth" and doesn’t exist independently of anything else. There is a saying among people who believe that where they call it “there is no death just the passing of form” (calling death an illusion). As for the finger part, the argument there is that human make arbitrary cutoff points for body “parts”. That annblat link goes on about it (though his story involves two birds). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/167 "2019-07-10T04:34:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > BEcause it is fundamentally"cut from the same cloth" and doesn’t exist independently of anything else. I have two articles of clothing that are, in fact, literally cut from the same cloth. Sometimes I wear one. Sometimes I wear the other. I’m neither of them. If one gets destroyed, it’d be no big loss to the other one — or to me. I also have some articles of clothing that _aren’t_ cut from the same cloth; losing one wouldn’t be a big deal to me. Now, if I lost one of my fingers, that’d be a big deal to me… > [@](#): > > As for the finger part, the argument there is that human make arbitrary cutoff points for body “parts”. That annblat link goes on about it (though his story involves two birds). …but if someone else, on another continent, lost a finger, I may never even find out; but, depending on who it is, I may even say, _what is that to me?_ ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/168 "2019-07-10T06:20:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I have two articles of clothing that are, in fact, literally cut from the same cloth. > > Sometimes I wear one. Sometimes I wear the other. I’m neither of them. If one gets destroyed, it’d be no big loss to the other one — or to me. I also have some articles of clothing that _aren’t_ cut from the same cloth; losing one wouldn’t be a big deal to me. Now, if I lost one of my fingers, that’d be a big deal to me… > > …but if someone else, on another continent, lost a finger, I may never even find out; but, depending on who it is, I may even say, _what is that to me?_ What I guess they mean is probably rooted in the no-self stuff from Buddhism. That things are made of and dependent on other parts for their existence and such have no inherent essence. In the case of humans there is nothing you can point to that is a self because it came from somewhere else. Your tastes, likes, dislikes, they aren’t inherently you they are the result of other things. “you” are a collection of parts but none of those parts are inherently you, so there is no essential “you”. There was some Koan about “what was your original face before your mother and father were born”. By original face they mean nonduality, whatever that is. My guess is that it has something to do with the universe before it expanded. The only saving grace I think I have here is that applying quantum physics findings to the macro world doesn’t work, but even then I don’t think that’s what it is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/169 "2019-07-10T10:08:32Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > What I guess they mean is probably rooted in the no-self stuff from Buddhism. That things are made of and dependent on other parts for their existence and such have no inherent essence. In the case of humans there is nothing you can point to that is a self because it came from somewhere else. Your tastes, likes, dislikes, they aren’t inherently you they are the result of other things. “you” are a collection of parts but none of those parts are inherently you, so there is no essential “you”. Again: so what? You say that I have various “tastes, likes, dislikes”. And you, presumably, have different “tastes, likes, dislikes”. And let’s say that someone else, somewhere else, differs from both of us when it comes to “tastes, likes, dislikes”. What is that to a fourth person, who (a) while knowing not us, (b) announces that he’s always been roaming with a hungry heart, summing his situation up with a declaration like, say, ‘much have I seen and known, cities of men, and manners, climates, councils, governments — myself not least, but honored of them all — and drunk delight of battle with my peers; for I am a part of all that I have met, yet all experience is an arch wherethrough gleams an untraveled world’, or some such? Let’s say two people, who know of one another, are quite alike: they’ve had similar experiences, they have similar “tastes, likes, dislikes”; they make similar decisions and lead similar lives; some would say They’re Cut From The Same Cloth. Say two other people, who also know of one another, are very dissimilar: they have vastly different experiences, and vastly different “tastes, likes, dislikes”; they make vastly different decisions, and lead vastly different lives, and maybe on occasion they ask each other for advice; some would say They’re Not Cut From The Same Cloth. And let’s say that two other people, neither of whom knows the other exists, live through and learn from their own experiences while making their own decisions in light of their own tastes and likes and dislikes — which, in many cases, are exact opposites. What, in your opinion, would have to change for one of them to look at himself and at someone else and meaningfully draw a distinction between “I” and “You”? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/170 "2019-07-10T11:29:20Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > What I **guess** they mean is probably rooted in the no-self stuff from Buddhism. . . . And this is why you fail. Your guesses are wrong, and you expect us to validate them. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/171 "2019-07-10T16:34:16Z")
How do you know that my guesses are wrong? It seems like you guys haven’t read anything I linked or posted here which is why you aren’t getting what they are saying: > [@](#): > > What it means? > > Atoms are not discrete balls floating in space. They are more point-like excitations of a field. (Think of standing waves in a body of water.) > > There are no discrete things or objects of solid substance; things as we perceive them are merely changing forms and patterns in nature (the universe) as a whole. You are not a small and lonely being lost in a foreign universe; you are a direct expression of the whole of the universe as it currently is; you (as everything else) is a brief movement in the dance of nature. You do not exist independent of the perceived outside; outside and inside are two sides of the same coin. > > The seed is no different from the tree. They are the same thing viewed from different perspectives in time. Birth and death are really no different; waking life is really no different from dreamless sleep. > > The nature of the human perspective is experience. This is why we say that we are the universe experiencing itself: A dark cloud is the universe clouding itself; the sun is the universe lighting itself; the rotating planet is the universe spinning itself. > > The ocean waves; the planet rotates; the sun shines; the heart beats; the stomach digests; the brain thinks; the body acts. These events are no different in nature. The thinker of thoughts is the waver of oceans, not a little man behind the eyes of the body; the waver of the ocean is spontaneous, as is the thinker of thoughts. Nature is not being moved; nature flows without direction; nature is not concerened with tomorrow, for it is dancing today. > > Look at a tree, see how it moves in the wind. > > Notice your thoughts arising, even the thought “I am thinking.” > > Notice that the movement of the tree and the movement of thought are two expressions of the same thing. > > Stop labeling the tree and yourself; notice that all separation is a consequence of the labeling process; allow all boundaries to dissolve. > > Feel the swaying of the tree as much as you feel the arising thoughts and the other bodily sensations. > > Feel intuitively that what you refer to as I is a form in the universe experiencing itself. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/172 "2019-07-10T16:38:40Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > How do you know that my guesses are wrong? Because your history here has shown that all of your guesses are always wrong. Many of your simple declarative sentences are wrong as well. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/173 "2019-07-11T00:58:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Because your history here has shown that all of your guesses are always wrong. Many of your simple declarative sentences are wrong as well. Past performance is not indicative of future results. Like I said, people haven’t really addressed what the links or paragraphs are saying here. This isn’t me saying it, I’m just showing you details about it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/174 "2019-07-11T01:25:31Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > This isn’t me saying it, I’m just showing you details about it. You also have demonstrated an inability to realistically evaluate sources, or even show a modicum of discrimination in latching onto nonsensical ideas. Your links are, for the most part, garbage. ---
**Author:** ![ioioio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ioioio/32/316_2.png) [@ioioio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ioioio)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/175 "2019-07-11T01:43:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Past performance is not indicative of future results. . . . How do you come up with this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/176 "2019-07-11T19:36:42Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You also have demonstrated an inability to realistically evaluate sources, or even show a modicum of discrimination in latching onto nonsensical ideas. Your links are, for the most part, garbage. But why are they? I can’t just dismiss something without a reason ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/177 "2019-07-11T19:43:58Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But why are they? I can’t just dismiss something without a reason You’ll be a much happier and less annoying poster if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/178 "2019-07-11T19:55:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > But why are they? I can’t just dismiss something without a reason If you can accept premises without reason, you can dismiss them without reason. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/179 "2019-07-11T20:52:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you can accept premises without reason, you can dismiss them without reason. “It is not a book to be lightly thrown aside. It should be thrown with great force.” – Sid Ziff ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243/180 "2019-07-12T00:51:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you can accept premises without reason, you can dismiss them without reason. But it isn’t entirely without reason, the paragraph I posted on this page explains it yet people keep telling me it’s just nonsense without saying why. I mean scientifically it seems like it makes sense since everything is made of the same atoms at the base level, everything contains the atoms present at the start of the universe. Then heavier elements formed and we have what we see today. So how is everything not the universe then? People keep saying no but they don’t explain to me how. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-the-universe/836243.md?page=10)