# Are you/we better off than 4 years ago? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2004, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902 "2004-05-31T10:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/1 "2004-05-31T10:36:44Z")
The OP title is the question for debate. The article below is evidence that we are not. I certainly am not. Your thoughts? > [@](#): > > \*\*In four short years, a turnaround in the national mood \*\* > Memorial Day 2000 looks carefree from today’s vantage point > > - Vicki Haddock, Insight Staff Writer > Sunday, May 30, 2004 > SF Chronicle > > Looking back over your shoulder to the Memorial Day weekend of 2000 is like peering across a chasm for a glimpse of a more frivolous, forgettable era. > > Four years ago, we breathed a collective sigh of relief that Y2K hadn’t hailed Doomsday after all. Our Elvis-esque president continued to star in our national soap opera of scandal. > > The three top-rated TV shows were: “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?” and “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?” and “Who Wants to be a Millionaire?” (It was on three times a week.) > > Presidential candidates sparred over mandatory gun trigger locks, Social Security lockboxes and other issues that would hardly lock up the national discourse for long. > > The ultimate victor, George W. Bush, promised to be “a uniter, not a divider” – although for reasons not entirely his own, pollsters say the last four years have driven the electorate into a polarization that may be unprecedented. > > He also decried the “nation-building” forays of the Clinton-Gore administration and told voters he would be more careful about committing U.S. troops abroad without a clear goal and a clear exit strategy. > > In the spring of 2000, the conventional wisdom was articulated by Fareed Zakaria, then managing editor of Foreign Affairs magazine, published by the Council on Foreign Relations: “The big difference is that Bush appears to view foreign policy from the pragmatic, problem-solving perspective, and Gore has a somewhat messianic approach. He wants to do sweeping things that will change the world in one fell swoop.” > > The future is, by definition, unknowable, but in retrospect, we appeared particularly oblivious to the sucker-punches fate soon would be sending our way: > > [In four short years, a turnaround in the national mood]([http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi)? > file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/30/INGGT6PULV1.DTL) ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/2 "2004-05-31T11:21:42Z")
I, personally, am significantly better off. I make more money, I work as many hours as I want to, and have more things than I did 4 years ago. Under the previous administration, however, I lost my job (due to the BRACC) and was forced to take a short series of side jobs until I got another position with my previous employer. Now as far as we… We were attacked by a coordinated band of horrific militant fundamentalist muslim bastards, who killed thousands of innocent civilians and 343 of my brothers and sisters, so by that standard, I suppose we’re worse off. But frankly, I’m glad Bush stole the election (I know, electoral college, whatever :rolleyes: :dubious: ) . I watched that wooden-headed sumbitch Al Gore for 8 years whilst Pres. Clinton worked his way through the office, and I don’t think he’d have had the stones to chase down these malcontents. Bush may be a knucklehead, but he’s surrounded himself with people who’ve done this kind of work their whole lives. Yeah, it’s crooked, but it’s politics. Clinton’s hands weren’t clean either. I don’t think we’re better off, but we’re not worse off, the course has always been a forward one, it’s just now that we’re moving laterally. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/3 "2004-05-31T12:43:44Z")
Forward but lateral? Anyhoo… I have been significantly worse off but have turned it around. I entered 2000 riding high as a senior exec in a medium-large firm but when that one bought it (in 2002) I found myself on the beach for 6 months. This is something that had never happened to me. Usually I have them lining up at trade shows and on the golf course trying to lure me over but the simple fact was that while people might have wanted to hire me there simply was a holocaust in my industry with one in four (approx) publishing firms and magazines buying it due to the ‘retrenchment’ in the advertising industry. I’m better off now but it’s not because of anything the government did. I assessed the situation and decided to find a spot outside my normal geography with a firm on the rise. So to make things better for myself I cut myself off from my previous life. Plusses and minuses to everything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/4 "2004-05-31T13:01:12Z")
Personally, I am much better off than I was four years ago. I’m making a higher salary, my job is more secure and I’ve benefitted from the Bush tax cuts on long-term gains. (Timber sale) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/5 "2004-05-31T13:02:09Z")
We are significantly worse off. The economy is in a shambles and the federal budget went very quickly from record surpluses to record debt. The man who promised to be a “unificator” has polarized this nation as has not been seen since the Civil War. He has wasted billions of dollars and thousands of lives in his personal vendetta against Saddam Hussein. Under his leadership, the US military has for the first time engaged in physical torture worthy of a banana republic. He has squandered the sympathy and good will bestowed upon the United States after the terrorist attacks and has given the international community reason to distrust us at best and hate us at worst. He has united the Islamic world against us. His administration has been such an utter, complete, and cataclysmic failure that words simply cannot adequately convey. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/6 "2004-05-31T13:55:18Z")
I am worse off. When Tata (India) came into my previous company there were several rounds of layoffs as they became more entrenched. I found that a project our department worked on for months was suddenly transfered to Tata. Half of us found ourselves without jobs. My new job pays 45% of my previous salary, and I do not yet have medical or dental insurance or vacation. Fuel prices have skyrocketed, due, I believe, to the President’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/7 "2004-05-31T14:21:19Z")
The job I had in 2000 went to China. I now make $5.50 less an hour. No insurance. You tell me. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/8 "2004-05-31T14:37:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > \The economy is in a shambles… \ Perusal of actual recent job creation and unemployment data, and the stock market, would tend to create a different impression. Speculation is that the prime interest rate may rise in the not too distant future as a result of positive economic news that shows the very low rates in effect recently are no longer needed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/9 "2004-05-31T15:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Perusal of actual recent job creation and unemployment data The problem with “job creation and unemployment data” is that they don’t tell the whole story. I lost my job, and I found another one. So in 2003 my layoff counted as a “job lost” in the unemployment figures. In 2004 my new job counts as a “job created”. Therefore, “no job was lost”. -1 + 1 = 0. However, the figure does not take into consideration that my “job created” pays _less than half_ of my previous job. So it can be argued that I’m only “45% employed” because the “created job” is not equivalent to my previous situation. Therefore, it is a net loss. Starting with a zero sum (100% pay): 0 - 55 = -45. I was not in manufacturing, but I’d be rather offended if making burgers at a fast-food joint were reclassified as a “manufacturing job”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/10 "2004-05-31T15:13:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We are significantly worse off. The economy is in a shambles … I simply don’t understand the need to make unsupportable statements like this. There are many credible criticisms that can be leveled against Bush, such as the ones you used in the rest of your post. Why sully a reasonable argument with nonsense like this? And so… please define “shambles” and tell us how the US economy falls into that category. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/11 "2004-05-31T15:16:38Z")
I had a great job four years ago. Now, I’m working part-time on a job that pays 1/4 what I was making before. I have an interview coming up with a full time job that pays 1/2 of my good job, no benefits, and I’ll be lucky to get it. Fuck no, I’ve never been worse off. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/12 "2004-05-31T15:54:39Z")
That’s just it, to Bushco and the pencil pusher in the govt, a job is a job is a job. It doesn’t matter to them that the job you have now pays half what you were making. They still count it as creating a job. It seems that they think you should be glad you have a job at all. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/13 "2004-05-31T16:13:35Z")
Far better off. Although it has only been in the past year or so that my occupation has shook off the damage from the recession of the late Clinton years (1999-2000), things are finally getting back to healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/14 "2004-05-31T16:14:52Z")
Personally, I am significantly better off today than 4 years ago. Better, higher paying job, more interesting work, more personal and job security. None of this is due to the current administration, however. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/15 "2004-05-31T16:39:52Z")
Nothing wrong, of course, with wanting more and better. Without a doubt there are people truly suffering. Sometimes it is irksome, however, to hear people complaining about how bad they have it when they have no true comparison. Anybody here living on one meal a day? Obviously you all have a computer, or at least access to one. Bet most of you have cars. We all have time to spend typing away here, so are probably not working 18 hour days. If this is the worst it has ever been for you, things must be pretty good. Personally, I’ve seen my actual purchasing power decline, as pitiful or non-existent raises are less than the cost of living increase. But I’ve been a heck of a lot worse off by a long shot. Four years ago, we believed we were safer, but it was out of ignorance. Now we know more, but the dangers were there all the time. Oh, and in response to the OP, I don’t know what the t.v. ratings of “Millionaire” have to do with anything. The vast majority of what’s on the tube is garbage; always has been and probably always will be. ---
**Author:** ![borax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/838e76/32.png) [@borax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borax)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/16 "2004-05-31T16:55:02Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Nothing wrong, of course, with wanting more and better. Without a doubt there are people truly suffering. Sometimes it is irksome, however, to hear people complaining about how bad they have it when they have no true comparison. Anybody here living on one meal a day? Obviously you all have a computer, or at least access to one. Bet most of you have cars. We all have time to spend typing away here, so are probably not working 18 hour days. or maybe we’re not working at all and we’re typing away in a public library. I think the “are you better of now” approach that Reagan used could easily win Kerry the election. I don’t have hard numbers for this, but pretty much every one I know has taken significant pay cuts or has left the job market altogether and gone to grad school. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/17 "2004-05-31T17:11:52Z")
Well just about everyone I know(including myself), is better off or about the same as they were 4 years ago. A couple are worse off, but on the whole the economic situation looks good-enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/18 "2004-05-31T17:13:04Z")
Suburban Plankton and I are better off than four years ago…at least **we** think we are. I was able to quit my job last summer. SP’s job now supports our family alone and we haven’t had to reduce our standard of living. Thanks to the stock options I had from my previous job, was able to buy and pay off our new Land Rover as well. We don’t have “more and better” than we did four years ago; we have essentially “the same”, but on one income instead of two. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/19 "2004-05-31T17:33:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I simply don’t understand the need to make unsupportable statements like this. There are many credible criticisms that can be leveled against Bush, such as the ones you used in the rest of your post. Why sully a reasonable argument with nonsense like this? And so… please define “shambles” and tell us how the US economy falls into that category. The number of jobs in the US marketplace has dropped during the Bush administration. I don’t believe that point is in question. Our 401k accounts, which did so magnificently in the Clinton years, have stalled since early 2000. Bush has stated, and I’ll search for a cite, that outsourcing of jobs is a good thing. I will document more for you, but at the present I haven’t the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902/20 "2004-05-31T17:36:22Z")
Does anyone have access to a site with year-by-year income statistics? It seems like the best way to determine this objectively would be to look at inflation adjusted median income numbers. But I don’t buy the Reagan analogy here. Anyone who thinks this is like 1980 never lived thru the Carter years of stagflation. Inflation was running in the high single digits and interest rates were soaring-- I specifically remember mortgage rates peaked out at about 18%. I used to get up at 4am to get in line for gas-- you’d’ve thought we were living in the USSR. It was a miserable, miserable time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-we-better-off-than-4-years-ago/247902.md?page=2)