# Are you willing to die from Covid 19 to help the economy? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 24, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198 "2020-03-24T20:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/101 "2020-03-26T00:57:51Z")
Never mind… already cited. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/102 "2020-03-26T01:03:13Z")
Hell no I’m not willing to die for the economy. I’m happy to let Glenn Beck and his ilk do their part. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/103 "2020-03-26T01:20:30Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > There were 3 waves to the Spanish Flu, but by far the deadliest lasted 3 months. The other two were relatively mild in comparison. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#/media/File:1918_spanish_flu_waves.gif) is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The “mild” third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly “mild” flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/104 "2020-03-26T01:30:17Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I had this conversation with my 70 year old father with an auto immune disease and I’m ok with him dying to not mortgage my daughters future. I don’t have to go out to the greater public any more than I am currently so its hard for me to say I’d risk myself. In general my wife and I would be ok going back to living our normal life knowing there was a 20% chance of dying in exchange not having a 10+ trillion dollar debt that will impact my daughters their whole lives. > > I think the answer is I’d be ok with dying for the economy but that feels wrong. A 20% chance of each of you dying means that there is over a 1 in 3 chance of at least one of you dying. You really would accept a 1 in 3 chance of your daughter being an orphan to maybe keep her from higher inflation in the future? Would you play Russian Roulette with those odds for a more immediate return? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/105 "2020-03-26T01:41:57Z")
I wonder how many people would have to take this devil’s bargain for it to be worth anything. Say 1% took it. That’s not going to be enough customers to keep any restaurants open. When I was working, if 1% of our staff came in they might as well not, since nothing would get done. That’s certainly true for factories. Put 1% of the people on the assembly line and see how far you get. 10% would be no better. 50%? Maybe. I think you’d need well over that. And of course, would you want to be the first? You’d be risking your life for almost no benefit. Remember, the airlines are cutting domestic flights not because of government dictates, but because no one is flying. Would this mean that companies would be able to pressure their employees to sign the pledge to go back to work? Basically, it would people at risk without helping the economy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/106 "2020-03-26T02:42:22Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > That absolutely closes out those questions! Thanks for doing that research. Happy to be of service! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/107 "2020-03-26T02:52:26Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > This whole thread, why anyone would argue, is just beyond stupid and morally illiterate. > > If you are worried about people, JUST GIVE THEM MONEY. IT IS MONEY. > > I have said this before. I am not going to play pub trivia right now. I have also said I would pay, pay tax, equal to the amount that I spend on things I can’t do right now, and even take nothing in return for what I am paying. To help those who might be out of a job. > > But I would rather pay that and get nothing than pay the same and sit in the bar for 2 hours and possibly get COVID-19. The personal interaction is a negative value right now. You can take my portion of the money, I am fine with that. But the whole risking my life thing, there is absolutely no reason for me to do that. It’s completely disconnected from the money, and idiotic that anyone thinks that risking your life sitting in a bar for two hours adds any value whatsoever. It doesn’t. > > You want to risk your life, get involved in some sort of essential service that actually needs to be maintained. Otherwise, take care of the rest of the people with money, I will pay my share, and leave the completely needless risk of life out of it. Can I have some money? I’m serious. I lost my job to this. I’m not even sick. They just cut staff. I have $0 income right now, and I have four mouths to feed. I’m broke. If you’re really willing to cough up the pub money, would you paypal me your $20? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/108 "2020-03-26T04:28:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#/media/File:1918_spanish_flu_waves.gif) is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The “mild” third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly “mild” flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived. It would be good to see that chart geographically. If the lower numbers were due to immunity, then the areas that suffered through the 2nd wave were probably not nearly as badly hit on the 3rd wave and, in effect, only had to do deal with one wave. Each wave lasted 3 months, so from a specific location perspective, it lasted 3 months. But I don’t know. I’m curious if that is how it worked out. If there id data like that which breaks it out for say, Western Europe, Australia and North America it would be really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/109 "2020-03-26T04:51:43Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Happy to be of service! > 🙂 I wondered about something. If 40,000 people die because of unemployment, when unemployment goes up so will the number who die. Unemployment was hovering around 4% for quite a while, so I’ll assume that 40,000 is related to that rate. If we hit a recession, or worse, where the unemployment rate rises to 20%, that would indicate a 5x increase in the number of deaths due to uninsured, assuming that relationship is linear. It very well might not be. But maybe the death rate isn’t linear. Maybe it only increases by a factor of 0.7 or something. A 14% unemployment rate (3.5x) would mean an ~2.5x increase in the death rate. So instead of 40,000/year dying it would be 100,000. It doesn’t include bankruptcies and other lives crushed because of lack of insurance. So just looking at a sort of order of magnitude of all this, I don’t think the death rate due to unemployment is as easily dismissed as it first appeared. It still doesn’t justify letting so many suffer and die because of this disease, but the secondary effects aren’t as negligible as I first thought by your well researched post. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/110 "2020-03-26T04:54:19Z")
To the original post: What a dumb-ass question. It’s the kind of thing I would expect from conservatives if Hillary was president. Dopers (rightfully) criticized conservatives for the Obamacare “death camps” and yet this thread proves that they can do the same stupid shit. Let’s take out all nuance, re-frame it in the worst possible interpretation, and then pretend it’s the common outcome. If Hillary was president the question would look like this on the Dope: Would you be willing to risk a small chance of illness or even death to prevent the economy from going into the dumper, which would cause hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of people to lose their jobs and make their families destitute? We can have a rational discussion on what we’re willing to risk, economically or human, during this crisis. This thread is not it. The problem is that under all of these discussions is the assumption that if the economy is doing poorly then Trump loses in November. This makes it too easy for Dopers to dismiss the pain that would result from a bad economy. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/111 "2020-03-26T04:56:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#/media/File:1918_spanish_flu_waves.gif) is a chart of deaths per 1,000 over time. The “mild” third wave was only 12 or so per thousand. Today a similarly “mild” flu would result in over 3 million deaths. The lower rate was likely due to immunity from that part of the population which caught the flu on the second wave and survived. And now I see your chart is for the UK, which answers that question. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/112 "2020-03-26T05:30:22Z")
If I was a Republican and didn’t truly believe in my heart of hearts that all the races were equal I would really really love the idea of being able to condemn people to death for their perceived value to the economy. I feel like there was a guy back in the day who did something similar but I can’t remember his name… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/113 "2020-03-26T06:20:48Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > It would be good to see that chart geographically. If the lower numbers were due to immunity, then the areas that suffered through the 2nd wave were probably not nearly as badly hit on the 3rd wave and, in effect, only had to do deal with one wave. Each wave lasted 3 months, so from a specific location perspective, it lasted 3 months. But I don’t know. I’m curious if that is how it worked out. If there id data like that which breaks it out for say, Western Europe, Australia and North America it would be really interesting. The [Wiki article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu) which included the chart is pretty good. The focus did move around. However I’m not sure how relevant that is for today, since it was much harder to travel long distances, and there was the impact of the war which forced many potential victims to be close together in army camps. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/114 "2020-03-26T06:24:58Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > And now I see your chart is for the UK, which answers that question. > > Thanks! I looked for deaths over time, since that is an interesting statistic, but the UK chart is the only thing I found. I’m sure the third peak has something to do with soldiers coming back from France. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/115 "2020-03-26T06:31:34Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > To the original post: > > What a dumb-ass question. It’s the kind of thing I would expect from conservatives if Hillary was president. Dopers (rightfully) criticized conservatives for the Obamacare “death camps” and yet this thread proves that they can do the same stupid shit. Let’s take out all nuance, re-frame it in the worst possible interpretation, and then pretend it’s the common outcome. > > If Hillary was president the question would look like this on the Dope: Would you be willing to risk a small chance of illness or even death to prevent the economy from going into the dumper, which would cause hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of people to lose their jobs and make their families destitute? > > We can have a rational discussion on what we’re willing to risk, economically or human, during this crisis. This thread is not it. The problem is that under all of these discussions is the assumption that if the economy is doing poorly then Trump loses in November. This makes it too easy for Dopers to dismiss the pain that would result from a bad economy. If Hillary were president she would not be calling on things being back to normal so that the churches can be filled with possibly infectious people for Easter. If Hillary were president she’d be listening to the medical people, not touting unproven remedies. If Hillary were president she would be using her powers to get masks and other equipment manufactured, not holding back for the sake of the free market. The way to ease the pain is stimulus, like enhanced unemployment, which finally got passed in the Senate. It is not to say that hey, millions have died, but at least the bars are open. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/116 "2020-03-26T12:06:27Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I want to be brave enough to do this, but I’m not sure I will be. I’m also scared that I’ll call 911 and they will be too overwhelmed to respond, leaving me to die alone in agony. > > I’d like to at least have a way to end things here at home if that happens. Jesus god, I need something for anxiety! If you are in a state with legal medical marijuana, cannabis can really help with anxiety. That’s what is keeping me going. But I’m normally pessimistic. I’ve kept a supply of “medicine” on hand for the past 30 or so years, replacing it when it expires. If I can get to my medicine cabinet when the need arises, I can go peacefully. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/117 "2020-03-26T12:51:44Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Lets put some numbers to this discussion. > > Regarding recessions and depressions killing people - > Research has put the number of excess cancer deaths in the US due to the GFC at around 18,000: 9,000 per year over two years [cite](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-26/gfc-may-have-caused-500000-extra-cancer-deaths/7447464). Obviously that’s just one cause, but this [chart](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/su6304a2f3.gif) of death rates by cause which covers the GFC period doesn’t seem to show all that much of an anything for the relevant period > > [Other research](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/) shows the effect of the Great Depression on death rates to be … basically zero. That seems to be a little small to be believed, honestly, but whatever effect it did have is obviously small enough to be hard to pick up on. > > Meanwhile… > > Other research claims that excess deaths due to being uninsured in America - a problem that the powers that be seem to be in no hurry to fix - is around [45,000](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/) per year. > > Estimates of deaths from a ‘let her rip’ covid outbreak that infects nearly everyone at once range from a ridiculously low half a million or so (only a third of the country ends up with the disease, the death rate is no more than the 0.6% reported in well-managed South Korea) up to a still-plausible seven-and-a-half million (half the country gets it, all of the 5% who need intensive care don’t get any, and they all die) > > You see why many of us won’t take the ‘but economic downturns cause death too!’ argument seriously. > [@cmosdes](#): > > That absolutely closes out those questions! Thanks for doing that research. Agreed. Thanks for doing that research. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/118 "2020-03-26T13:03:47Z")
I’m a locomotive engineer for a major freight railroad in the N.E., an essential employee. I did go to work earlier this week, but saw that they were not taking this seriously at all. They just had a couple of extra soap dispensers in the crew offices, that’s it. Other wise its just business as usual. We are still doing crew swaps without the engines being cleaned, and we are still going to the hotel at the end of the trip. A train coming from Chicago could of had 4 different crews on it before I board, and the risk at the hotels is obvious. If they can’t be bothered to come up with new protocols to minimize my chances of getting infected, then I see no need to expose myself, to that essential employee or not. I’m not willing to die for the economy, I’m staying home for now. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/119 "2020-03-26T13:23:47Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m a locomotive engineer for a major freight railroad in the N.E., an essential employee. I did go to work earlier this week, but saw that they were not taking this seriously at all. They just had a couple of extra soap dispensers in the crew offices, that’s it. Other wise its just business as usual. We are still doing crew swaps without the engines being cleaned, and we are still going to the hotel at the end of the trip. A train coming from Chicago could of had 4 different crews on it before I board, and the risk at the hotels is obvious. > > If they can’t be bothered to come up with new protocols to minimize my chances of getting infected, then I see no need to expose myself, to that essential employee or not. > > I’m not willing to die for the economy, I’m staying home for now. Thank you. I mean that sincerely – thank you for putting the health and safety of yourself and your fellow americans ahead of a couple extra days of work. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198/120 "2020-03-26T15:27:15Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Is Trump willing to die from COVID-19 to help the economy? > > If so, I might give it some consideration. Why not? He is in the target age range. Overweight, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-die-from-covid-19-to-help-the-economy/850198.md?page=7)