# Are you willing to fight dirty? If so, how dirty? If not, will you fight at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422 "2013-08-28T18:11:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/1 "2013-08-28T18:11:12Z")
Let’s say you’re walking through the park, minding your own business, not bothering anybody, when a unhinged stranger begins to vocally and loudly object to your very existence. You try to withdraw peaceably, but that proves impossible; declaring his attention to fuck you up, the stranger leaps on you, knocks you to the ground, and begins pummelling you. You are not armed, and the Crazy Man’s initial blows knocks your cell phone out of your hand \*No one leaps to your defense or aid. \* How dirty are you willing to fight? Will you gouge his eyes if necessary? Knee him in the balls? Bite anywhere? Bite a throat? Grab a convenient stick and hit him in the head? If there’s a line you won’t cross, what is it, and why? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/2 "2013-08-28T18:12:51Z")
Is the ref looking? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/3 "2013-08-28T18:13:30Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Is the ref looking? Don’t make me unleash the ratels. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/4 "2013-08-28T18:20:21Z")
I’m not a fighter and have very little experience fighting. Providing I wasn’t stunned by the attack, I’d go for the eyes and the crotch. Hard. ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/5 "2013-08-28T18:24:15Z")
Under those circumstances, whatever it takes. Except gouging out the eyeballs, I cannot stand looking at eyeballs. If they popped out I’d be puking. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/6 "2013-08-28T18:26:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Don’t make me unleash the ratels. 🙂 I’m being facetious, but to make a point: our notions of fair play and fighting fair are bound up in the spirit of fair competition. There’s no competition here, and not even really a “fight” - you’re just straight up getting assaulted for no logical reason. You’re justified in using whatever force is reasonably necessary to escape injury. I’m not saying you should immediately stab him in the carotid, but you’re perfectly justified in straying from Marquess of Queensberry rules. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/7 "2013-08-28T18:27:12Z")
I won’t bite him in the balls. But really that’s more for me than out of any sense of fair play. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/8 "2013-08-28T18:28:20Z")
As dirty as proves necessary. I would assume, under the circumstances, that I was fighting for my life. If I’m prepared to use lethal force, why would I balk at lesser measures, just because they’re “dirty”? I’d try to avoid biting, though–not out of any sense of of “fair play”, but because trying it is a good way to get yourself hurt (not to mention the risk of catching anything bloodborne he might be carrying). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/9 "2013-08-28T18:30:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How dirty are you willing to fight? Will you gouge his eyes if necessary? Knee him in the balls? Bite anywhere? Bite a throat? Grab a convenient stick and hit him in the head? If there’s a line you won’t cross, what is it, and why? I will do whatever is necessary to win the fight. I would gouge his eyes out, knee him in the balls, bite off his nose, cave his skull in, etc. There is no line I wouldn’t cross. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/10 "2013-08-28T18:30:09Z")
There is no such thing as a fair fight. Have a black belt in TKD and a couple of other belts, but have only taken two swings in my entire 33 years of adult life, both in self-defense. (And the second one, nearly 20 years ago, didn’t even connect - but ended the fight merely by showing that I WOULD fight back.) That being said, you try to take me down hard and I’m going to do everything possible to fuck you up. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/11 "2013-08-28T18:31:44Z")
Of course. Why wouldn’t I? Fair fighting is for the ring, the purpose is to not end the fight too quickly or too dangerously. In this situation you want the fight ended ASAFP before you’re killed, so forget the Marquess of Queensberry rules and go for the eyes (gouge with the thumb into the corner of the eye socket, rake with fingers) and use neck cranks/chokes - pressure on the carotid artery at the side of the throat. Doubt I’d bite due to the increased risk of blood-borne pathogens, but if it was my only weapon left then I would. He’s chosen the time and place and I’m already on the ground and taking damage so I’m at a disadvantage, no point handing the attacker any more advantages by holding back. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/12 "2013-08-28T18:33:42Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > 🙂 I’m being facetious, but to make a point: our notions of fair play and fighting fair are bound up in the spirit of fair competition. There’s no competition here, and not even really a “fight” - you’re just straight up getting assaulted for no logical reason. You’re justified in using whatever force is reasonably necessary to escape injury. I’m not saying you should immediately stab him in the carotid, but you’re perfectly justified in straying from Marquess of Queensberry rules. I protest the suggestion that I used the nonsensical phrase “fair fight.” But of COURSE there’s a fight here, unless you are unwilling or unable to strike back at all. Crazy Man assaults me; I punch, kick, knee, bite, or otherwise assault him to force him to desist. How is that not a fight? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/13 "2013-08-28T18:36:11Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I’m not saying you should immediately stab him in the carotid… I don’t know what I personally would do, but I wouldn’t fault someone else for deliberately employing lethal force early on in the struggle. If Crazy Aggressor has verbalized his objection to my existence and begun assaulting me without provocation, I would say I am within reason to fear for my life and therefore I’m justified in repelling the attack with deadly or permanently-damaging force. Eyeballs, major arteries, testicles, sleeper holds, whatever I have to do to _quickly_ end the threat to my safety before he has a chance to injure or kill me. Once he’s no longer capable of asault, then my defense can end and I can move to a safe location and call 911. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/14 "2013-08-28T18:40:37Z")
When challenged, walk away. When unable to walk away, reduce your opponent to dog meat as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Rules are for sissies. Gouge, bite, kick, break, rend and mutilate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/15 "2013-08-28T18:43:33Z")
I don’t know how to fight fair. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/16 "2013-08-28T18:49:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I protest the suggestion that I used the nonsensical phrase “fair fight.” To the guy who assaults you for no reason the phrase is nonsense. He isn’t interested in scoring points, he wants to hurt or kill - it’s not a competition, it’s a struggle for survival; > [@](#): > > The idea of a fair fight is ludicrous to a streetfighter. And trying to do a stand up, mano y mano, one-on-one fight like you are training for in you MA school will have you waking up in the hospital. > > You better expect multiple opponents, weapons, ambushes, blindsiding, “backing up on you” and underhanded dirty tricks when facing a streetrat. A streetrat is the guy who will get a piece out of the average asshole. He’s got many clashes with average assholes under his belt. Doing these horrid things is how he survives out on the streets. > **[Fighting facts](http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fightingfacts.html)** > > Take a look at the realites - not the fantasies - of streetfighting Read a few of the author’s books and he knows his stuff. See also; the [combat pragmatist](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatPragmatist) trope. Will Turner: _You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight, I’d kill you._ Jack Sparrow: _Then that’s not much incentive for me to fight fair, now is it?_ ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/17 "2013-08-28T18:51:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I protest the suggestion that I used the nonsensical phrase “fair fight.” > > But of COURSE there’s a fight here, unless you are unwilling or unable to strike back at all. Crazy Man assaults me; I punch, kick, knee, bite, or otherwise assault him to force him to desist. How is that not a fight? We’re getting far into semantics territory here, and if you want to say that you’re fighting to defend yourself in that circumstance I can’t grade you down for improper word usage. I’m just saying that it’s best not to think of it as a “fight.” If the police show up and separate you and ask what you were fighting about, your best answer is that you weren’t “fighting” at all - he assaulted you and you defended yourself from his assault. A fight implies mutual combat, with the goal of defeating your opponent. Boxers have fights in the ring, loudmouth drunks have ego fights in parking lots. You don’t have to defeat your opponent to defend yourself, you have to escape injury and get to a place of safety. If you have to punch your assailant in the throat or break his clavicle to defend yourself so be it, if you slap him in the ear or stick you fingers in his eyes and then run like hell while he’s staggering and disoriented, so be that. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/18 "2013-08-28T18:51:44Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > To the guy who assaults you for no reason the phrase is nonsense. He isn’t interested in scoring points, he wants to hurt or kill - it’s not a competition, it’s a struggle for survival; > > [Fighting facts](http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fightingfacts.html) > > Read a few of the author’s books and he knows his stuff. 😕 Have I written anything that makes you think I believe in fighting fair? Because if I have, I suggest that you are reading it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/19 "2013-08-28T18:55:37Z")
I’m much smaller than most adults so I have zero compunction about fighting ‘dirty’ especially in a self-defense situation. Eyeballs, neck, genitals, kicking the stomach, and stabbing (if I have an implement) are not off-limits. Of course I would never engage in a physical fight unless assaulted by a crazy person; the odds are so far against me winning that I will try to resolve a conflict in every other way first. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/20 "2013-08-28T18:58:39Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I don’t know what I personally would do, but I wouldn’t fault someone else for deliberately employing lethal force early on in the struggle. If Crazy Aggressor has verbalized his objection to my existence and begun assaulting me without provocation, I would say I am within reason to fear for my life and therefore I’m justified in repelling the attack with deadly or permanently-damaging force. Eyeballs, major arteries, testicles, sleeper holds, whatever I have to do to _quickly_ end the threat to my safety before he has a chance to injure or kill me. > > Once he’s no longer capable of asault, then my defense can end and I can move to a safe location and call 911. If I ever have the misfortune to find myself in that situation I hope to have you on my grand jury. 🙂 I agree that deadly force may be necessary to defend yourself, but we’re dealing with a pretty broad hypothetical and I wouldn’t want to give the impression that deadly force is always justified to defend oneself from assault. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422.md?page=2)