# Are you willing to fight dirty? If so, how dirty? If not, will you fight at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422 "2013-08-28T18:11:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/61 "2013-08-29T04:04:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Let’s say you’re walking through the park, minding your own business, not bothering anybody, when a unhinged stranger begins to vocally and loudly object to your very existence. You try to withdraw peaceably, but that proves impossible; declaring his attention to fuck you up, the stranger leaps on you, knocks you to the ground, and begins pummelling you. You are not armed, and the Crazy Man’s initial blows knocks your cell phone out of your hand \*No one leaps to your defense or aid. \* > > How dirty are you willing to fight? Will you gouge his eyes if necessary? Knee him in the balls? Bite anywhere? Bite a throat? Grab a convenient stick and hit him in the head? If there’s a line you won’t cross, what is it, and why? I wouldn’t have tried to “withdraw peaceably”. I would have run like hell away from him. If he manages to catch me and take a swing at me, then he’ll go to jail after he gets out of the emergency room. My definition of a fair fight: I win. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/62 "2013-08-29T08:05:39Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Which maximizes the damage _you_ take. No it doesn’t, it just means you don’t use more force than is necessary, it doesn’t mean going easy on him or taking any risks yourself by any means. And its within the law as well, you certainly don’t want to end up on the wrong side of a jail cell because you used excessive force and seriously injured or killed the guy when you didn’t have to. I have no particular problems with doing the latter to someone if required, but only if there is no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/63 "2013-08-29T09:07:58Z")
I would do whatever is necessary to stop me being hurt. And that is one of the reasons that, if I lived in the US, I would never own or carry a gun. The slightest hint of someone being about to assault me and I’d be pointing it at them. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/64 "2013-08-29T10:19:13Z")
I would lie on the ground, curl up in a ball, and sob “don’t hurt me, I have asthma.” Then when he gets close I give him a hard kick to the kneecap and/or balls and run away. Seriously, all this deadly force stuff is hard and risky when you are standing. All you need to do is disable one leg and get the hell out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/65 "2013-08-29T12:31:32Z")
So in this hypothetical, there’s no way I’m getting away without fighting, I take it? Then I guess he beats me into unconsciousness or death, then. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/66 "2013-08-29T12:55:19Z")
The army (British/Australia/New Zealand) teach CQB - Close Quarter Battle. In no sense is this elegant or ritual or fair. The techniques are deliberately vicious, fast, and nasty. The imperative is to disable and maybe kill the opponent as quickly and silently as possible. Tear out the carotid artery with your teeth, twist the head to break the neck, clamp the mouth to silence any noise, fingers into eyes, knife into brain through the ear…whatever it takes. And fast. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/67 "2013-08-29T13:13:56Z")
Fight to incapacitate by any means; kill only if necessary. But yeah, eyes, ears, throat, groin, nose, even putting my hand down his pants, grabbing hard and _twisting_ is fair game if the opportunity presents itself. I’m not a fighter by nature but if forced to fight I’m not holding back. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/68 "2013-08-29T13:31:07Z")
A “dirty fighter” is a term that children use. ALL fights are ‘dirty’ unless you’re in a boxing ring. My brother disabused me of the notion when I was young: “Never talk a fight. Get in the first punch and swing for the bleachers. If he starts to get back up after that, pick up the nearest object and clean his clock with it.” I can happily say that other than a couple of scraps as a child, I’ve never had to put it to the test. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/69 "2013-08-29T13:41:12Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > When challenged, walk away. When unable to walk away, reduce your opponent to dog meat as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Rules are for sissies. Gouge, bite, kick, break, rend and mutilate. This. I do not fight. I know a lot of principles regarding strategy and anatomy, but don’t have any practice in a “fight for life” scenario. If I’m forced to get physical, anything goes if it will bring the altercation to a swift conclusion: bites, kicks, stomps, throat punches, stick in the eye, anything. In fact, the last thing you onlookers should be looking for is a boxer’s stance and a carefully placed punch of any kind. And of course, the fight’s over as soon as it looks like I have time & room to run. As for biting the crotch well, it’s not my first target (but actually a bite to the neck is my contingency go-to opener) but if it’s right there in my face somehow, it’s suppertime for the jester. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/70 "2013-08-29T13:59:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s the idea. The bite to the neck isn’t about killing your opinion; humans in their current evolutionary state are not well equipped for that. It’s about scaring him the fuck away. Depends on where you bite. Side of the nek is readily available, painful / frightening, and potentially useless. But a good nip to the adams apple is a show stopper. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/71 "2013-08-29T14:03:45Z")
If the attacker hasn’t specified the rules he wants to use and gotten confirmation from me then there are no rules, except for fear of what the law might say. Most of what I have learned in martial arts training would be considered a dirty trick by someone. That’s kinda the point of learning it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/72 "2013-08-29T14:32:05Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > The imperative is to disable and maybe kill the opponent as quickly and silently as possible. > > […] twist the head to break the neck [Necks don’t work](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=699483)that way! ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/73 "2013-08-29T14:52:44Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Which maximizes the damage _you_ take. That’s true, but some of us just aren’t wired with a switch we can flip to go from “normal citizen” to “berserker.” I’m bigger and stronger than most people, and I’ve been in a few fights in my life. I usually “lose” them, because I’m not psychologically capable of deliberately hurting someone. I put “lose” in quotes because just about everyone would probably say I lost, but I don’t consider it a loss when I get attacked and only fight back hard enough to make the other guy stop fighting. Bad news is that if I ever get into a REAL fight where the other guy wants nothing more than to cause as much damage as possible, I probably won’t be able to walk away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/74 "2013-08-29T14:54:43Z")
If a man insists upon attacking me, despite my vehement protests, he is not entitled to a fair fight. I will hurt him in whatever manner I can, as severely as I can, until I can secure a safe escape. If I cannot escape at all, or otherwise stop the attack, I will attempt to disable or kill my assailant - and, again, he has no right to demand that I do so “fairly.” Indeed, it is in my assailant’s own best interests that I fight “dirty” - if he is incapacitated from a kick to then groin, or blinded, then it is less likely I will have to try to kill him. Of course, I know nothing about fighting, and am only in okay-but-not-outstanding shape; it’s entirely possible I couldn’t succssfully escape from, disable, or kill an attacker. But I would certainly do my level best. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/75 "2013-08-29T15:34:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So in this hypothetical, there’s no way I’m getting away without fighting, I take it? Then I guess he beats me into unconsciousness or death, then. Usually I would say something dismissive and condescending about absolute pacifism, but I just decided I can’t be arsed to be a jackhole right now. Well, I suppose I could point out that such an attittude is why absolute pacifism is self-limiting. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/76 "2013-08-29T15:53:32Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > That’s true, but some of us just aren’t wired with a switch we can flip to go from “normal citizen” to “berserker.” > > I’m bigger and stronger than most people, and I’ve been in a few fights in my life. I usually “lose” them, because I’m not psychologically capable of deliberately hurting someone. I wouldn’t know. Usually I just wake up the next morning covered with someone else’s blood and no memory of what happened.😃 Seriously though. Not only do most people not shift from “normal” to “berserker”, most fights are not some crazed berserker mindlessly attacking you out of the blue. The last “fight” I was in was some idiot a few years ago getting in my face in a bar over some perceived slight. A sharp one-handed shove was enough of a reaction on my part to let him know that my patience was at it’s limit. Basically just enough of a response for him to think about how much he wants to try to look like a tough guy in front of his friends vs actually maybe having to fight this guy in front of him. Judging by the comments in this thread, the appropriate response should have been for me to smash his face with the rocks glass full of scotch that I had in my other hand (seems like a waste of scotch though). Realistically, if you are attacked for real, chances are you won’t have time to think about whether you are “fighting dirty”. The other guy probably already jumped you from behind with three of his buddies. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/77 "2013-08-29T16:02:44Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > That’s true, but some of us just aren’t wired with a switch we can flip to go from “normal citizen” to “berserker.” There’s a huge variety of different options between those two extremes though, and some people are quite capable of using violence, even extreme violence, without so much as losing their temper. Regarding some of the posts in this thread, you’re going to have some smooth highly paid lawyer going through the scenario at their leisure, examining every aspect of the fight as it unfolded, you don’t want to give them the opportunity to gain any traction against your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/78 "2013-08-29T16:18:22Z")
The whole scenario is highly unlikely (especially the part where I’m unarmed). I’d like to think that I’d be quick enough to grab a rock or a stick or a handful of dirt and apply it appropriately. I would certainly have no moral problem with going for the crazy guy’s eyes, balls, throat, or anywhere else that could hurt him or break him. ETA: **Disposable Hero** , I’d rather deal with a lawsuit than end up dead or maimed. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/79 "2013-08-29T16:23:48Z")
I would prefer the tried and trusted British technique of subjugating my assailant with withering sarcasm. And bleeding all over him. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422/80 "2013-08-29T17:15:52Z")
I recently watched the movie “Jack Reacher” in which Tom Cruise plays an ex-military cop. The fight scenes struck me as very realistic - short, brutal, designed to end your opponent as fast as possible, not the choreographed dance-fighting we get in most movies. If anyone has seen it, was that a pretty realistic representation? I especially like how everyone involved becomes winded quickly, I’ve always heard a real fight doesn’t go on for minutes, but barely seconds and even the winner is exhausted by the end. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-fight-dirty-if-so-how-dirty-if-not-will-you-fight-at-all/667422.md?page=5)