# Are you willing to go broke to maintain the present lockdown? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471 "2020-04-23T22:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/361 "2020-04-30T16:24:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > \ First, the next time you want to lay accusations of wall so text I seriously think you should look at your posting strategy. Second, I did answer your question. It was a loaded question and you know it. No matter what I answered to that you were going to throw it back at me one way or another. And you did based on what I answered. I answered your question, you answer this one: Would you want your family to go bankrupt to pay for your healthcare? You avoided my “binary” question because it is inconvenient for you and you keep sidestepping it because it is making my point entirely. Do you assert that opening up the New Zealand economy, taking from level 4 down to level 3 and eventually level 2, will not result in any deaths that otherwise could be saved if you stayed locked down forever? This is the point where you’ll claim I’m arguing for arguments sake, avoiding both questions because you don’t like the answers you need to provide, and say this conversation is over. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/362 "2020-04-30T16:38:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > For that weak tea reply you have there, it is clear that New Zealand is doing better than Sweden. A few months into a pandemic that is going to take years to resolve and you call it weak tea to say it is too early to determine which approach is better? Based on your criteria, Belgium, UK, Netherlands and others have all chosen a worse path than the US. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/363 "2020-04-30T17:40:37Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > A few months into a pandemic that is going to take years to resolve and you call it weak tea to say it is too early to determine which approach is better? It is when you have demonstrated to be wrong many times already, like with Sweden. > [@cmosdes](#): > > Based on your criteria, Belgium, UK, Netherlands and others have all chosen a worse path than the US. I looked at Belgium and while some praised the Belgian government, it has been criticized for its lack of action and mistakes early on. > **[COVID-19 pandemic in Belgium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Belgium)** > > The COVID-19 pandemic in Belgium has resulted in 4,859,522 confirmed cases of COVID-19 and 34,339 deaths. > The virus was confirmed to have spread to Belgium on 4 February 2020, when one of a group of nine Belgians repatriated from Wuhan to Brussels was reported to have tested positive for the coronavirus. Transmission within Belgium was confirmed in early March; authorities linked this to holidaymakers returning from Northern Italy at the end of the half-term holidays. The epidemic increased r... > [@](#): > > When the first measures have been taken by the Belgian government on 10 March, in the form of recommendations, some expressed that more drastic measures were required, like Professors Herman Goossens and Marc Van Ranst who questioned the set limit of maximum 1,000 people for indoor events.[122] The BVAS/ABSyM, the biggest medical trade union in Belgium, warned for a potential collapse of the health care system and called for a closure of all schools at short notice as well as a ban on all gatherings of more than hundred people.[123][124] In an open letter several Flemish rectors with experts in the fields of epidemiology, virology, biostatistics and health economics, including two members of the Scientific Committee for Coronavirus, urged the authorities to take decisive measures and to avoid non-binding instructions and guidelines.[125] Similarly, Leopold Lippens, the mayor of Knokke-Heist, judged the actions of the federal authorities insufficient and therefore ordered the ban on all indoor and outdoor activities in his municipality.[126] ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/364 "2020-04-30T18:09:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is when you have demonstrated to be wrong many times already, like with Sweden. You are essentially saying that because you believe I’ve been wrong before, I’m automatically wrong now. Brilliant. Based on what you are saying, it is now a fact the approach taken by New Zealand is better than the one taken by Sweden and that will not ever change. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/365 "2020-04-30T18:26:18Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > You are essentially saying that because you believe I’ve been wrong before, I’m automatically wrong now. > > Brilliant. > > Based on what you are saying, it is now a fact the approach taken by New Zealand is better than the one taken by Sweden and that will not ever change. That was a straw man, I did not said that, what I said was: “Unless Sweden does not do more changes” as in: except if they do change, meaning also that I hope that they do change too. BTW I cited why you where wrong about Belgium too, not just Sweden ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/366 "2020-04-30T18:32:44Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > First, the next time you want to lay accusations of wall so text I seriously think you should look at your posting strategy. > > Second, I did answer your question. It was a loaded question and you know it. No matter what I answered to that you were going to throw it back at me one way or another. And you did based on what I answered. > > I answered your question, you answer this one: > Would you want your family to go bankrupt to pay for your healthcare? > > You avoided my “binary” question because it is inconvenient for you and you keep sidestepping it because it is making my point entirely. > > Do you assert that opening up the New Zealand economy, taking from level 4 down to level 3 and eventually level 2, will not result in any deaths that otherwise could be saved if you stayed locked down forever? > > This is the point where you’ll claim I’m arguing for arguments sake, avoiding both questions because you don’t like the answers you need to provide, and say this conversation is over. You should know better than to alter text inside quote boxes. Warning issued. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/367 "2020-04-30T18:35:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was a straw man, I did not said that, what I said was: “Unless Sweden does not do more changes” as in: except if they do change, meaning also that I hope that they do change too. Strawman my ass. It is right there. me: Sweden and New Zealand are great examples of something, but we aren’t sure yet of what. It is far too early to start comparing the results of the different approaches. Only history will be able to make the final determination. You: For that weak tea reply you have there, it is clear that New Zealand is doing better than Sweden. me: A few months into a pandemic that is going to take years to resolve and you call it weak tea to say it is too early to determine which approach is better? You: It is when you have demonstrated to be wrong many times already, like with Sweden. Me: You are essentially saying that because you believe I’ve been wrong before, I’m automatically wrong now. I asked why you thought my statement, “it is too early to make any determinations” is weak tea and you said, point blank, because you think I’ve been wrong before. It is right there. There is no strawman here. You pointed to the death/million stat as proof I’m wrong. If that is going to be your criteria my statement is wrong, you then need to admit UK, Belgium, Netherlands and many other places are doing worse than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/368 "2020-04-30T18:36:15Z")
The main thrust of this thread was cmosdes insisting that the economic cost of “flattening the curve” is unjustified, because under a simplistic model where no other factors change, the same number of people are inevitably going to die anyway. His argument seems to be that we should abandon lockdown and social distancing and go ahead and let a lot of people _definitely_ die sooner rather than _maybe_ die later unless we can meet some burden of proof to be absolutely sure that any economic sacrifice to “buy time” is justified. Because the idea that a few extra months of the application of human ingenuity and massive technological resources might lead to ways to lower the ultimate death toll seems so implausible to him, or something. I kind of gave up on the last few pages because he just dismissed and ignored any counterarguments, but today’s xkcd seems apt: > **[Everyone's an Epidemiologist](https://xkcd.com/2300/)** > > If enough people uphill decide to try the rolling strategy, they can make the decision for you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/369 "2020-04-30T18:56:06Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Strawman my ass. It is right there. > > me: > Sweden and New Zealand are great examples of something, but we aren’t sure yet of what. > It is far too early to start comparing the results of the different approaches. Only history will be able to make the final determination. > > You: > For that weak tea reply you have there, it is clear that New Zealand is doing better than Sweden. > > me: > A few months into a pandemic that is going to take years to resolve and you call it weak tea to say it is too early to determine which approach is better? > > You: > It is when you have demonstrated to be wrong many times already, like with Sweden. > > Me: > You are essentially saying that because you believe I’ve been wrong before, I’m automatically wrong now. > > I asked why you thought my statement, “it is too early to make any determinations” is weak tea and you said, point blank, because you think I’ve been wrong before. It is right there. There is no strawman here. You pointed to the death/million stat as proof I’m wrong. If that is going to be your criteria my statement is wrong, you then need to admit UK, Belgium, Netherlands and many other places are doing worse than the US. So you think that after showing you where wrong about Sweden that by mentioning “automatic” that your statement is then ok? Your reply here also shows that you missed what happened in Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/370 "2020-04-30T18:58:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The main thrust of this thread was cmosdes insisting that the economic cost of “flattening the curve” is unjustified, because under a simplistic model where no other factors change, the same number of people are inevitably going to die anyway. His argument seems to be that we should abandon lockdown and social distancing and go ahead and let a lot of people _definitely_ die sooner rather than _maybe_ die later unless we can meet some burden of proof to be absolutely sure that any economic sacrifice to “buy time” is justified. Because the idea that a few extra months of the application of human ingenuity and massive technological resources might lead to ways to lower the ultimate death toll seems so implausible to him, or something. > > I kind of gave up on the last few pages because he just dismissed and ignored any counterarguments, but today’s xkcd seems apt: > > [xkcd: Everyone's an Epidemiologist](https://xkcd.com/2300/) QFT And I see that he misses the point about New Zealand spectacularly. Again \*\*less \*\*people will die when there will be no surge of sick people overwhelming the health system. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/371 "2020-04-30T19:10:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So you think that after showing you where wrong about Sweden that by mentioning “automatic” that your statement is then ok? Your reply here also shows that you missed what happened in Belgium. Unless you have a time machine and can definitely show that Sweden ends up worse overall from this you haven’t demonstrated squat about Sweden vs. New Zealand. Seriously this is inane. You make a baseless claim that my argument is wrong because you feel I’ve been wrong before. I call you on it, you say that is a strawman argument (moving the discussion to something else, I guess), it is quoted back to you showing how it was no strawman, and you decide to again stand behind your assertion that Sweden is definitively going to do better than New Zealand when all is said and done because they have fewer deaths now. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/372 "2020-04-30T19:17:41Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Unless you have a time machine and can definitely show that Sweden ends up worse overall from this you haven’t demonstrated squat about Sweden vs. New Zealand. There is a nonzero chance that a space-time wedgie will open up over Sweden and erase it from existence. Or that space aliens will come and torment us all with terrible poetry. We can’t even calculate the exact probability of these things happening (we don’t know how many space wedgies appear, or how many aliens are in existence, or how bad their poetry is). What we can do is form reasonable guesses, based on observable trends. The observable trends ALL say New Zealand is doing **vastly** better than Sweden. There’s a non-zero chance that those trends will suddenly reverse themselves, sure, but we don’t entertain all non-zero chances as if they were equal, lest we also must entertain the space alien angle. You are wrong because you’re trying to treat two claims as having equal validity when they quite clearly do not. A position centered around a claim that fits the preponderance of existing evidence is more valid than a position that doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/373 "2020-04-30T19:21:58Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Unless you have a time machine and can definitely show that Sweden ends up worse overall from this you haven’t demonstrated squat about Sweden vs. New Zealand. Timelines include the present and the past, it is silly to ignore what we have now. > [@cmosdes](#): > > Seriously this is inane. Most of the people here and experts out there think that about your arguments. > [@cmosdes](#): > > You make a baseless claim that my argument is wrong because you feel I’ve been wrong before. I call you on it, you say that is a strawman argument (moving the discussion to something else, I guess), it is quoted back to you showing how it was no strawman, and you decide to again stand behind your assertion that Sweden is definitively going to do better than New Zealand when all is said and done because they have fewer deaths now. Yes, and it is clear that you can not counter that but by hypothesizing what we \*\*could \*\*get if we had a time machine, I rather deal with the evidence we have now, and historically speaking you are still wrong as it was shown by the experience from cities in the USA during the Influenza pandemic of 1918. BTW it was still a straw man when you did not expand, clearly I did say that there was a chance for Sweden to change while you claimed that I said that there was no change possible. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/374 "2020-04-30T19:32:11Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > I don’t disagree that the early indications are that Sweden is suffering more now. However, it doesn’t take a wedge in the spacetime continuum to realistically understand that trend can be altered, significantly. Should a vaccine never become available, Sweden’s approach will mean any subsequent waves of the virus will have diminishing impacts on Sweden, maybe in terms of mortality rates and/or economic impact. A vaccine is not a given, nor is the timing of it even if one is found. Subsequent waves are more than possible. Those, combined, more than allow for a significant change in the outcomes taken on by Sweden and New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/375 "2020-04-30T19:41:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Timelines include the present and the past, it is silly to ignore what we have now. This is precisely the reason Trump took so freakin long to respond to this and was ill prepared. He looked at what was presently happening and didn’t want to bother looking at what could be happening. Congratulations, you are supporting Trump’s arguments for a lack of preparation. This is the point where you scramble and say we need to look at both and not just the present. Yet, you told me I’m wrong because you are looking at just the present. Pick one. If we need to look at both, then WE DO NOT YET KNOW WHICH APPROACH IS BETTER. If you only want to make judgements on the present situation, you are no better than Trump. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, and it is clear that you can not counter that but by hypothesizing what we \*\*could \*\*get if we had a time machine, I rather deal with the evidence we have now, and historically speaking you are still wrong as it was shown by the experience from cities in the USA during the Influenza pandemic of 1918. Sure, we can compare how a society that was dealing with a world war, primitive medical and analytical skills, rudimentary understanding of viruses and transmission and archaic medical systems to try an use as a model for this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/376 "2020-04-30T19:57:19Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > This is precisely the reason Trump took so freakin long to respond to this and was ill prepared. He looked at what was presently happening and didn’t want to bother looking at what could be happening. Congratulations, you are supporting Trump’s arguments for a lack of preparation. This is the point where you scramble and say we need to look at both and not just the present. Yet, you told me I’m wrong because you are looking at just the present. Pick one. If we need to look at both, then WE DO NOT YET KNOW WHICH APPROACH IS BETTER. If you only want to make judgements on the present situation, you are no better than Trump. Actually we do have historical and present evidence of what likely works better, yours is really just the fallacy of demanding perfection when the good is there. > [@cmosdes](#): > > Sure, we can compare how a society that was dealing with a world war, primitive medical and analytical skills, rudimentary understanding of viruses and transmission and archaic medical systems to try an use as a model for this. Uh, you really want to claim that the Triple Entente invaded the USA? This is really silly when one considers that even with a war going on elsewhere, cities in the USA showed what made a difference then. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/377 "2020-04-30T20:07:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually we do have historical and present evidence of what likely works better, yours is really just the fallacy of demanding perfection when the good is there. You like to jump to entirely different arguments when you see the one you are trying to defend is devoid of all basis, don’t you? You said Sweden, factually, is worse than New Zealand because of what is happening presently. It is right there. Need me to quote it? I contended we won’t know the final results until some time. NOW you are claiming we can predict the final results based on the oft quoted comparison between St. Louis and Philadelphia. So pony up. Take a stance and stick by it. Are we going to judge the approaches of the two nations based on what is happening immediately or at some point in the future when this is behind us? If you want to judge it by final results, perhaps we should wait for those final results. Unless, of course, you are claiming you know what those final results are going to be. If you want to judge but the current situation, you are no better than Trump, making judgements not based on long term desired outcomes, but on what you see now. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, you really want to claim that the Triple Entente invaded the USA? This is really silly when one considers that even with a war going on elsewhere, cities in the USA showed what made a difference then. Unless the particular city is dealing with an invasion they aren’t affected by what is happening when the country is at war? Well, that certainly is a position to take, to be sure. And, again, to claim the same approaches used back then will result in the same outcomes now ignores the orders of magnitude of changes we’ve had in technology, medicine, society and economics. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/378 "2020-04-30T20:19:24Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I don’t disagree that the early indications are that Sweden is suffering more now. However, it doesn’t take a wedge in the spacetime continuum to realistically understand that trend can be altered, significantly. > > Should a vaccine never become available, Sweden’s approach will mean any subsequent waves of the virus will have diminishing impacts on Sweden, maybe in terms of mortality rates and/or economic impact. Maybe. And maybe the rapture will happen and no one will die. And maybe the rat king will rise up from the sewers and launch a crusade against the surface dwellers. All of these have a non-zero probability of happening. You clearly aren’t getting it, or don’t want to get it. Maybe means nothing. Maybe is an invalid line of argumentation, because anything is a “maybe.” _Maybe_ the laws of physics are wrong, and unicorns will cure us all. Show data that says Sweden is trending better than New Zealand, or stop mentioning it. I don’t care about maybe. I don’t care that maybe Steven Segal will find a plant that cures us all. Maybe is not a valid line of argumentation. Data walks. Maybe talks. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/379 "2020-04-30T20:22:09Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > You like to jump to entirely different arguments when you see the one you are trying to defend is devoid of all basis, don’t you? You said Sweden, factually, is worse than New Zealand because of what is happening presently. It is right there. Need me to quote it? I contended we won’t know the final results until some time. NOW you are claiming we can predict the final results based on the oft quoted comparison between St. Louis and Philadelphia. So pony up. Take a stance and stick by it. Are we going to judge the approaches of the two nations based on what is happening immediately or at some point in the future when this is behind us? Like I said, you do not like the answers so you have to continue with no new ideas. What is noticeable here is that ponying up does not dismiss what I said, even though you would like that. > [@cmosdes](#): > > If you want to judge it by final results, perhaps we should wait for those final results. Unless, of course, you are claiming you know what those final results are going to be. > > If you want to judge but the current situation, you are no better than Trump, making judgements not based on long term desired outcomes, but on what you see now. This is really a nonsensical reply. > [@cmosdes](#): > > Unless the particular city is dealing with an invasion they aren’t affected by what is happening when the country is at war? Well, that certainly is a position to take, to be sure. Read it again, that is what you proposed, I only noticed how silly that was since Germany or the other enemies never invaded the USA. > [@cmosdes](#): > > And, again, to claim the same approaches used back then will result in the same outcomes now ignores the orders of magnitude of changes we’ve had in technology, medicine, society and economics. Tell that to the historians and epidemiologists that use the information gained then to tell us what is the best we can do now. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/380 "2020-04-30T20:34:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This is really a nonsensical reply. and he steps to the left, right around the question because he doesn’t want to address it. Brilliant! Haven’t seen moves like that since “The Matrix.” > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Read it again, that is what you proposed, I only noticed how silly that was since Germany or the other enemies never invaded the USA. I said the country was dealing with a world war. There are many was to need to have to deal with a world war even if not being invaded. You are clearly claiming “dealing with” means being invaded. It is nonsensical. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Tell that to the historians and epidemiologists that use the information gained then to tell us what is the best we can do now. You mean the same epidemiologists that said we will be overrunning medical systems even if we put full lockdowns in place? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471.md?page=20)