# Are you willing to go broke to maintain the present lockdown? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471 "2020-04-23T22:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/61 "2020-04-24T11:15:55Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > This is what you and others don’t seem to get, I assume because you’ve never owned a business. “Better than now” doesn’t mean _diddly_ when you’re trying to keep a business going.As a business owner, you have more or less fixed costs: rent (or mortgage) payments, utilities, phone service, etc. You also have employees to pay, as well as supplies, etc. Upon reopening, 25% of your former customers return. Now you’re getting 25% of your old income and 75% of your old expenses. > > Congratulations, you are now out of business, but thanks for playing. So you are saying it is better to have no customers than 25% of your former ones? Interesting logic there. You don’t need to be a business owner to understand overhead. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/62 "2020-04-24T11:17:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So I still don’t understand the question. In answer to your original question: yes we have “thought it all the way through.” Okay, then let me try it another way. Let’s look at Singapore, for example. They never had the goal of completely eradicating the virus from within their boundaries. For now let’s leave aside the question of whether they could have if they’d wanted to – again, New Zealand being in an entirely different class in comparison – and instead focus on what the implications would be, and (presumably, at least) why countries like Singapore didn’t take that tack. It’s because they couldn’t afford to pay that price, because the goal of complete, and sustained, eradication implies giving up exchange with the outside world for as long as the virus exists in that outside world, outside their control. That’s what I mean by thinking it through. I mean having some longer-term vision. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/63 "2020-04-24T11:18:29Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The way to fix that part is easy. Universal healthcare funded through general taxation. The system in place in every other developed nation. Which we don’t have and won’t have for at least a year. So no, that isn’t a fix. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/64 "2020-04-24T11:27:05Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > Have you actually done the math? In TX, the max unemployment benefit amount is 521 per week. Add another 600 per week, do the math 1121X4.3=4820 per month. That’s not bad money. > > Lets assume the lower end of the scale, 669 per week X 4.3 = 2876 per month. > > Min wage is 7.50 per hour. Someone working at a Jack in the Box is lucky to get 40 hours per week, but we will go with that to make things easy. 7.5X40X4.3=1290 take away that 20 percent for benefits and they are getting 1032.00 Now offer to give them the full amount they would get by being unemployed in exchange for that 20 percent, and see how long it is before you will no longer be able to get your groceries. > > Critical thinking seems to be lacking in many of the plans being discussed. I don’t understand your numbers. You seem to be saying someone that worked at Jack in the box for minimum wage could bring home more (2876) per month than if they brought home the gross pay (1290)? Some having to give up most of their net is still getting something, plus benefits and a good chance at continued employment once the lockdown is lifted. Compare that to someone that is now entirely unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/65 "2020-04-24T11:36:43Z")
I think in the future, we will get smarter with this lockdown thing. If people know that it will only last a short period of time as long as everyone gets with the social distancing, stay-the-fuck-home program, then I gotta think that will make lockdowns less problematic economic-wise. People really are adaptable and innovative. Like, if this is the new normal, businesses can figure out how to operate under “lockdown” mode by providing curbside and internet services. Instead of shutting down all non-essential businesses, governments will only shut down those without an approved lockdown operating plan. This lockdown has hit us hard because we’re just figuring out a lot of stuff. A lot of us were caught unprepared. But I have hope that we will get better with this as time goes on. To answer the OP’s question, no. I’m not willing to go broke or starve to maintain the present lockdown. But that doesn’t mean I think we should open things up right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/66 "2020-04-24T11:52:19Z")
I’d still like to hear more about how I don’t have to pay people anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/67 "2020-04-24T12:05:12Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > It’s because they couldn’t afford to pay that price, because the goal of complete, and sustained, eradication implies giving up exchange with the outside world for as long as the virus exists in that outside world, outside their control. …you are making a lot of assumptions here. Singapore have the most cases of Covid-19 in south-east Asia and they are currently experiencing a [surge](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/singapore-coronavirus-outbreak-surges-with-3000-new-cases-in-three-days). Short term visitors are banned and like us they have a compulsory 14 day residents are quarantined or asked to self-isolate for 14 [days](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-travel-restrictions-border-shutdowns-country-200318091505922.html). They have different goals to us but are doing the same things as us in regards to international travel with worst results. You say they “can’t afford to pay the price.” But I don’t buy that. They are doing the same as us. But they started later, they backed off earlier and they are “paying the price”, whether they like it or not. So I still don’t understand your question. We’ve come up with our own calculus on what we need to do to get out of lockdown. Other countries are doing what there own thing. They can do what they like. What we’ve done here will hopefully get our economy going again in the shortest amount of time with the least loss of life. Why would Singapore’s failing strategy change that calculus? > [@](#): > > That’s what I mean by thinking it through. I mean having some longer-term vision. This is the long-term vision. Shut down hard, shut down early. Reopen the local economy in stages based on both the incubation period of the virus and metrics based on any local outbreaks. Consider allowing limited trans tasman flights a bit further down the track. Raise the alert level and lockdown again for new clusters. Wait for a vaccine before we start to open up the borders again. If you think this is all going to be over in a couple of months then you are very much mistaken. Our government is preparing us for the long-haul. I’m expecting this to last at least a couple of years. If that isn’t the time-frame you are imagining, then perhaps its time for you to reset your expectations. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/68 "2020-04-24T12:33:42Z")
I have no doubt at all that you are expecting it to last at a couple years in your country, given the tack you are taking. What I’m trying to say, and where it fits in the context of this thread, is that I don’t think the rest of the world could make do with those same kinds of measures. 'Cause in the end, people aren’t going to be willing to go broke to maintain a lockdown they don’t believe in. At least, not in most places not named New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/69 "2020-04-24T13:00:45Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > I have no doubt at all that you are expecting it to last at a couple years in your country, given the tack you are taking. What I’m trying to say, and where it fits in the context of this thread, is that I don’t think the rest of the world could make do with those same kinds of measures. 'Cause in the end, people aren’t going to be willing to go broke to maintain a lockdown they don’t believe in. At least, not in most places not named New Zealand. …I’m not planning on going broke. And I am probably much less likely to go broke living where I am than I would be if my personal situation was identical but I was living somewhere in America. And even if my business did fall over we’ve got a safety net here, safety nets that aren’t available everywhere else. I still don’t understand your question. Do you think I’m more likely to “go broke” because we’ve adopted the strategy we have? How did you come to that conclusion? Can you quantify that in any way? And what the rest of the world are doing now, and what they will be forced to do in a month or two when they don’t get this under control are two different things. We’ve got a plan here. The places that have a plan are going to do better than the places that don’t. And the places that don’t have a plan will be paying the price in blood. If you are happy to sacrifice your fellow citizens on a gamble that you **might** be able to reopen the economy and that it **might** not lead you to going broke then by all means, do so. But it doesn’t have to be that way. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/70 "2020-04-24T13:03:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …New Zealand has had 16 deaths in total. Just over a thousand confirmed cases. 8 currently in hospital. We’ve been in lockdown for five weeks and next week we start to open everything up again. I look at America’s numbers, I look at Sweden’s numbers, I look at our numbers and I think its indisputable that if you want a model to follow it isn’t what they did in Sweden: its what they did here. > > Had you followed \*\*our \*\*lead (and not attempted to follow Sweden’s, which, IMHO have gotten things deadly wrong) and if you had focused on shutting things down **early and hard** then America, just like New Zealand, would be looking at opening things back up again now. Instead America ignored the warning signs, ignored the science, and **acted too late**. “Focusing on the people most effected” isn’t what the science recommends as the best way to combat Covid-19. The best most effective strategy is social distancing. > > You knew enough. We all worked with the exact same information. You’re assuming the goal of the response in the united states was to minimize casualties. Let’s look at more “relevant” statistics – what portion of their wealth did the 1% in New Zealand lose in the pandemic? Because that’s what our public response has really been about protecting, not something silly like “human lives”. ---
**Author:** ![OleOneEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f14d63/32.png) [@OleOneEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OleOneEye)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/71 "2020-04-24T13:13:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Wait for a vaccine before we start to open up the borders again. And if there’s never a vaccine? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/72 "2020-04-24T13:18:35Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I did. Post 20. But I see the logic that it seems unfair to take a paycheck, add risk, and make people work. But there are other compensations people get just for working. Not everyone, but most do. Meanwhile, the unemployed get none of that. How is that fair? Could you elaborate on what the “compensations” are that people get just for working that would make them want to work without pay, knowing they’re risking their lives if they get the virus?\* \*that’s assuming that a test for immunity isn’t found or administered in a wide enough scale which is the situation in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/73 "2020-04-24T13:19:22Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > And if there’s never a vaccine? …then its Plan B. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/74 "2020-04-24T13:42:44Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > You’re attempting to compare Sweden, a country of 10 million, to NYC? Yes, I’m comparing a city of 8.8 million to a country of 10 million. And just to put things in leadership perspective, one of those leaders told it’s citizens to go to Chinatown to show support of a country that was isolating it’s own cities because of a pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/75 "2020-04-24T13:47:23Z")
Of course we all know that the population density of Stockholm is one fifth that of NYC, and the population density of Sweden is one one-thousandth that of NYC. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/76 "2020-04-24T13:50:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > to show support of a country This didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/77 "2020-04-24T14:23:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Had you followed \*\*our \*\*lead (and not attempted to follow Sweden’s, which, IMHO have gotten things deadly wrong) and if you had focused on shutting things down **early and hard** then America, just like New Zealand, would be looking at opening things back up again now. Instead America ignored the warning signs, ignored the science, and **acted too late**. “Focusing on the people most effected” isn’t what the science recommends as the best way to combat Covid-19. The best most effective strategy is social distancing. > > You knew enough. We all worked with the exact same information. Beyond our shambolic Federal response, the biggest difference between the US and effectively unitary states like most European states and New Zealand, is that there’s no authority for a Federal lockdown like you’re proposing. In other words, there’s no ability for the President or Congress to impose a national lockdown. That’s something that has to be done at the state level, and depending on the individual state, may be pushed down even lower to county level. So even had Trump been on the ball, the best he could have done is strongly recommend that states lockdown early. And despite his actions, some states DID lock down fairly early, and some counties/municipalities even earlier. New York is very much the outlier in the US- even considering the testing discrepancies, most other states are not having the sort of crisis that New York has undergone. Which is probably why people are starting to agitate for easing of the restrictions- it _seems_ like the distancing has been successful and that we’re just going through the motions at this point to a lot of people. The problem is, they’re underinformed, or not really understanding things. It’s precisely because we locked down, and have stayed there, that things don’t seem that bad- that second wave that’s being talked about is what’s going to happen if everybody gets out and about. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/78 "2020-04-24T15:20:39Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > Could you elaborate on what the “compensations” are that people get just for working that would make them want to work without pay, knowing they’re risking their lives if they get the virus?\* > \*that’s assuming that a test for immunity isn’t found or administered in a wide enough scale which is the situation in the OP. I said them multiple times in this thread. Most people will get health insurance, or at least part of it paid for by an employer. Many jobs offer some sort of retirement benefit, like a matching contribution to a 401(k). While maybe not true for those that were furloughed, it is likely very true for many that are still working. Trying to find a job in a few months is going to be a nightmare. Imagine what it will be like when the economy is _partially_ opened and some of those millions of jobs are returned. Working now will give you a much, much better chance of having a job later. These aren’t just far flung, sorta, kinda, benefits to working now. They are real compensations people get just for being employed. Someone furloughed has none of that. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/79 "2020-04-24T15:34:20Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I said them multiple times in this thread. > Most people will get health insurance, or at least part of it paid for by an employer. > Many jobs offer some sort of retirement benefit, like a matching contribution to a 401(k). While maybe not true for those that were furloughed, it is likely very true for many that are still working. > Trying to find a job in a few months is going to be a nightmare. Imagine what it will be like when the economy is _partially_ opened and some of those millions of jobs are returned. Working now will give you a much, much better chance of having a job later. > > These aren’t just far flung, sorta, kinda, benefits to working now. They are real compensations people get just for being employed. Someone furloughed has none of that. Ah OK, thanks. I was thinking you were talking about something more intrinsic. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-willing-to-go-broke-to-maintain-the-present-lockdown/852471/80 "2020-04-24T15:38:24Z")
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