# Are young singles relationship-averse? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 15, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203 "2023-11-15T19:29:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/81 "2023-11-22T15:39:54Z")
Have you tried having a conversation with your wife about this? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/82 "2023-11-22T15:41:14Z")
Sure, we’ve had arguments about this. It’s a sore spot. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/83 "2023-11-22T19:54:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Maybe this situation is very specific to me, but I sometimes wonder if other men are in the same position. I’ve got very little incentive to help with house work because I feel as though I’m going to get some sort of negative feedback no matter what I do. This is pretty common. The pattern is that the man typically (not always, just typically) has a lower or at least quite different standard of cleanliness and tidiness than the woman. Women are trained to feel responsible for the way the house looks, feels, runs. So they see their male spouse as needing to up their game, while the man sees nothing wrong with the way they do things, which has worked fine for them up til then. Men do not get judged about things like unwiped counters, a pile of dirty laundry in a corner of the bathroom, or a refrigerator that has nothing but beer and catsup in it. Women really really do. And this judgement is of course internalized. So they are generally quite a bit more tense about it. I have very slowly learned over the years that I only have two choices: ask my husband to do it and silently live with the results, or do it myself. Sometimes it’s one and sometimes the other. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/84 "2023-11-22T19:57:37Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I have very slowly learned over the years that I only have two choices: ask my husband to do it and silently live with the results, or do it myself. Sometimes it’s one and sometimes the other. My mother told me she’d do that with my dad. She wouldn’t say anything to him, but when he wasn’t around she’d go and do it the way she wanted it done. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/85 "2023-11-22T20:02:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > She wouldn’t say anything to him, but when he wasn’t around she’d go and do it the way she wanted it done. Yep. As the old saying goes, if you want it done right, you’re condemning yourself to a lifetime of thankless labor. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/86 "2023-11-22T20:17:35Z")
My ex wife was that way, not with cleaning because we’re both very tidy people. She’d just insist that I’d do certain things because I was good at it. I’d ask for advice and/or help and she’d refuse. Then I’d do it and she’d list all of the ways that I did a shitty job. She skipped over the redo it herself part. I did that too. I love that woman dearly but she was a pain in my ass. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/87 "2023-11-22T20:27:46Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The pattern is that the man typically (not always, just typically) has a lower or at least quite different standard of cleanliness and tidiness than the woman. Sometimes - in my house, it’s my husband who criticizes the dishwasher loading. And it has nothing to do with standards of cleanliness or him being judged on them.\* It’s because I don’t load with maximum efficiency which means he gets a couple of extra items in each load which means over the course of the year we do ten fewer loads which saves a few cents on detergent. Which is why I don’t load the dishwasher , put food away in the freezer/refrigerator, load anything into the car or do anything else that he approaches as a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. \* I almost wish it did have to do with cleanliness/tidiness standards - because then he wouldn’t pile his dirty clothes in the dining room when we have a hamper on the second floor. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/88 "2023-11-23T03:15:00Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Maybe this situation is very specific to me, but I sometimes wonder if other men are in the same position. I’ve got very little incentive to help with house work because I feel as though I’m going to get some sort of negative feedback no matter what I do. Are you me? I was the primary homemaker for myself and my late first wife for 30+ years of marriage and a decade of post-college single-hood before that. I was never a slovenly bachelor and in fact most of the 20-something women I dated had apartments that were sties compared to my neat & clean living arrangements. Per my new wife’s standards I fail utterly at dishwasher loading, dishwasher _emptying_(!), bed making, laundry washing & drying, towel folding, counter wiping, etc. Ok dear, that’s all yours. I refuse to be criticized by your word or your deed. I hope you’re making yourself happy. I’m rapidly loosing the deep sense of guilt I had early on for not carrying my fair share of the chores. But you make them impossible for me to accomplish successfully. You have made that bed, now lie in it in comfort. I’m happy to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/89 "2023-11-23T10:57:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Maybe this situation is very specific to me, but I sometimes wonder if other men are in the same position. I’ve got very little incentive to help with house work because I feel as though I’m going to get some sort of negative feedback no matter what I do. My ex-wife decided to stay at home when our first daughter was born. It was her decision from the start, and I respected it. I had a similar experience to what you describe. I used to do the laundry, put clothes away, make the bed, do the dishes, dispose of the trash, clean the kitchen, repair various things around the house, accompany her everytime we needed to buy groceries, cook (when she let me), take and pick up our daughters from school (“since you’re out anyway you might as well do it”), help them with homework every night and on weekends too. She was always insanely critical of everything I did. And she’d scream lists of complaints about “all” the things I didn’t do. When **Jennifer Lopez** released _Ain’t Your Mama_, she played it repeatedly when I was at home, including when… I was actually busy doing various chores. It was just surreal. And by the way, I cared much more about cleanliness than she did. I divorced her a few months after she had screamed at me that I HAD TO take our daughters to school one morning because she wanted to get some sleep. I had left for work at 7:30 am and come home at 8:10 pm the previous day. She had a day off (by then, she had started working again, 4 days a week). I don’t miss her one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/90 "2023-11-23T11:29:22Z")
I’m definitely one of those guys who worked all day and then came home and cleaned the house after his wife just watched TV all day and ate snacks and drank wine; and got the emasculating gaslighting about how me doing “women’s work” was no substitute for earning enough to afford her a maid. But I’ve seen the statistics that show how women work the same hours outside the home yet perform the bulk of the housework and childcare. Just because it wasn’t my reality doesn’t mean I’m going to dispute it. However, it does confirm my belief that women are as bad as men at confusing dating skills with relationship skills. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/91 "2023-11-23T17:09:15Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > However, it does confirm my belief that women are as bad as men at confusing dating skills with relationship skills. There is definitely a different set of skills for relationships vs short term sexual gratification. For all the talk of women earning less then men or doing the majority of the housework, one thing that doesn’t seem to get discussed is that a lot of women act fucking nuts. There is an old saying “happy wife, happy life”. But a little known secret is that there is nothing the husband can do to make some wives happy. - They don’t do any housework but berate the husband if he takes on those tasks - They get mad if they don’t have their own career then they get mad that they have to work - Reverse gaslighting - blaming everyone because they can’t find something they lost themselves - Inflexibility or inability to compromise IOW just a general blaming the husband for everything they don’t like about their own life. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/92 "2023-11-23T17:13:39Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > But I’ve seen the statistics that show how women work the same hours outside the home yet perform the bulk of the housework and childcare. Just because it wasn’t my reality doesn’t mean I’m going to dispute it. I’m not going to dispute it either. I just wonder about some of the reasons behind the disparity in who performs the housework. I’m not even 50 yet, and during my life a two income family has been the norm. I can only think a handful of people I’ve known who had or are stay at home parents. And the ones who were stay at home parents did so for a few years before returning to the workforce. So I don’t think anyone can reasonably expect a woman to do the lion’s share of the housework because she’s working too. Sometimes it does take a bit longer for cultural expectations to change despite the situation having changed a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/93 "2023-11-23T19:15:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > For all the talk of women earning less then men or doing the majority of the housework, one thing that doesn’t seem to get discussed is that a lot of women act fucking nuts. > > There is an old saying “happy wife, happy life”. But a little known secret is that there is nothing the husband can do to make some wives happy. So do a lot of men. And there is nothing the wife can do to make some husbands happy. If you’ve married such a person, of whatever gender, I advise getting unmarried. Better yet is not to marry such a person in the first place, but it’s not always easy to tell in advance. (There are also, of course, some people of whatever gender who claim to have done their best to please the other person, but who in fact have been doing nothing of the sort. Sometimes this is a communications breakdown, because A isn’t actually listening to B but only to what the inside of their own head thinks B is saying. Sometimes it’s a different standards breakdown, because A and B have entirely different standards about what it’s reasonable to ask. Occasionally it’s just deliberately trying to make oneself look good compared to the other.) > [@Odesio](#): > > I’m not even 50 yet, and during my life a two income family has been the norm. I can only think a handful of people I’ve known who had or are stay at home parents. And the ones who were stay at home parents did so for a few years before returning to the workforce. So I don’t think anyone can reasonably expect a woman to do the lion’s share of the housework because she’s working too. Sometimes it does take a bit longer for cultural expectations to change despite the situation having changed a long time ago. I think some of it’s that. And I think some of it is not recognizing all the work that needs to be done; or not agreeing that all of it needs to be done. It’s fairly easy to recognize that the dishes need doing – except that even there maybe one person doesn’t see why they can’t just eat takeout from paper plates and throw out the mess. One person may not recognize a need to dust until the dust bunnies are getting into the food. One person may not even notice that the other is keeping track of all the intersecting schedules for the family, or brushing the dog, or consoling the sick child, or making sure that supper is there even if it’s takeout, or that the ingredients are there if it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/94 "2023-11-23T19:40:00Z")
This is a pretty well known article that describes what @thorny_locust just discussed. > **[She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288)** > > It wasn’t a big deal to me when I was married. But it was a big deal to her. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/95 "2023-11-23T19:58:53Z")
Maybe it’s just me but that article really hit home except I was the wife in the scenario. Not that I was anywhere near a perfect spouse but if my wife asked me to do something “stupid”, I just did it. It saved a lot of aggravation and it made her happy. Like I’d spend three hours doing yard work. I’d mow the lawn and trim hedges and pick up dog shit and rake the leaves into a big pile. She’d be watching tv the whole time. Then I’d ask her to please hold the garbage bag open so I could shovel the leaves into it. Three minutes tops. She’s be angry that I interrupted her and scoff and roll her eyes and grumble about how stupid it was. And my next girl friend was the same. I’d drive two hours to a concert, pay for the tickets and dinner and then ask her to stay off her phone for the fifteen minutes to help me maneuver to the freeway. Just stay off the smartphone fifteen minutes of four hours of driving. She literally refused because it was “stupid”. Can’t you do a stupid thing for me for a few minutes? Anyway, I only date women who appreciate me now and it’s been much better. I can sniff out the entitlement now early in the relationship. I am still close with the ex wife and ex gf and they’ve apologized for their behavior (as I did for other things). The ex-wife has mostly learned and self improved. The ex gf not so much. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/96 "2023-11-23T20:49:26Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Can’t you do a stupid thing for me for a few minutes? That’s quite an impressive article and yeah: I suspect that a whole lot of getting along with people in one household, married or not but especially if married, has to do with each of them being willing to occasionally do something they think is stupid in order to please the other(s). The thing that was closest in there to what I was saying is this: > I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.” > > **But she didn’t want to be my mother.** > > She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household. > > She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management. The work of figuring out what things need to be done, at what times, in what order, and in what relative urgency if they can’t all be done on time (and/or can’t all be done with available funds): that is for most households a large, and for many households a massive, amount of work. And, for many people who aren’t doing it, it is effectively invisible. So they think they’re doing their full share if they do what they’re asked each time they’re specifically asked to do it. But they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/97 "2023-11-24T09:27:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > … one thing that doesn’t seem to get discussed is that **a lot of women act fucking nuts**. > > There is an old saying “happy wife, happy life”. But a little known secret is that there is nothing the husband can do to make some wives happy. > > - They don’t do any housework but berate the husband if he takes on those tasks > - They get mad if they don’t have their own career then they get mad that they have to work > - Reverse **gaslighting** - blaming everyone because they can’t find something they lost themselves > - Inflexibility or **inability to compromise** > > IOW just a general blaming the husband for everything they don’t like about their own life. > [@hajario](#): > > I can sniff out the **entitlement** now early in the relationship. Bolding mine. You know, I’ve often wondered recently whether there was such a thing as toxic feminity. For sure, what you wrote above echoes my experiences of the past… decades. Like toxic masculinity, it would be a set of “traditional” female behaviours and mindsets that are harmful to themselves, to women as a whole and to their partners. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/98 "2023-11-24T19:23:26Z")
I think @thorny_locust is most correct here - where there are tropes and traditions about what sort of spouse does what, it is probably best to divorce them (heh) from the realities that unpleasant people, needy people, and impossible-to-please people are available in all sex/gender flavors. 🙂 I think the reality of this, along with several decades of real-life / TV / Movie depictions of horrible divorces make being in a strong relationship but not engaged/married attractive. It reminds me of why (strained metaphor alert!) of why some people cling to IC vehicles because of range anxiety - they may NEED that range (read freedom) someday even if they haven’t anytime in the last decade. Back to failures to communicate in relationships though - one problem that I and my now-wife had after living together for a while was we didn’t communicate in the same ways, something I _suspect_ was based on upbringing, but may also have a gender component. She tended to want consensus on everything, and also expected me to pick up what were to her obvious hints. I expected her to verbalize if she was concerned, wanted, or needed something. So from her POV I was ignoring her, or acting unilaterally. From my POV she never _said_ anything at all, and seemed to be leaving all the decisions to me (which was often stressful). Of course, we got better at it. And neither side was exactly wrong, we were just used to communicating in different ways, which wasn’t as much as an issue as young college students, but became harder when we were living in the same house, sharing bills and responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2023, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/99 "2023-11-24T23:54:05Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > She tended to want consensus on everything, and also expected me to pick up what were to her obvious hints. I expected her to verbalize if she was concerned, wanted, or needed something. This is another really common communication problem between the sexes. Women are TRAINED to not ask for anything directly. It’s seen as aggressive, masculine. Women are supposed to be oblique. Then men, TRAINED to speak directly and ask for what they want, get irritated and confused by the hopeful hints that mean nothing to them. Women are far more interested in consensus than men are. When they are making decisions together, that is exactly how they proceed.There may be stronger voices among the group, but the goal is for everyone to participate and have their voice heard. Every group of women I’ve been part of has been like this. Women dislike and judge other women who assume a leadership role in a masculine style. I had to unlearn my basic training about communication to get my husband to understand anything I said. He does well if I talk to him like I would a twelve year old: assume nothing, state the obvious, say exactly what you want of them. It’s more work than talking to a woman who is trained to pick up small cues and clues so that nothing need be baldly stated or directly demanded. And, I will note, I was flummoxed in much the way men are by women when I met my southern mother-in-law, who left my midwestern female standards in the dust, in the oblique department. You’d need a translator to figure out what she was aiming at, much of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203/100 "2023-11-25T00:04:39Z")
I also want to say here, that this thread has veered pretty far into misogyny territory already, in my opinion. I’m not a mod, just stating something that probably isn’t obvious to most of the men posting in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-young-singles-relationship-averse/993203.md?page=6)