# Are "zero dark thirty" and "shock and awe" correct pre-existing military phrases? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 9, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825 "2013-02-09T22:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/1 "2013-02-09T22:37:02Z")
I read somewhere that soldiers don’t say “zero dark thirty” for an unspecified-time night op, but “oh dark thirty.” True? Also, is that just a special-ops term or do other services use it, including regular Army. The memorable, powerful, and effective [hendiadys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendiadys) “shock and awe” is now pretty much part of the American lexicon. Was it a term in use by tacticians or other brass first, or was it Schwarzkopf’s or Rumsfeld’s, or a talented writer for either of the two? ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/2 "2013-02-09T22:43:11Z")
From as early as I can remember, in the Navy, we were told that “oh” was a letter, and “Zero” was a number. We always said things like "I have to be at work at Zero Four"for four in the morning. Zero dark thirty was reserved for some undetermined time that was too early to get up. I do not remember “shock and awe” from before we all heard it. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/3 "2013-02-09T22:51:44Z")
Shock and awe was doctrine from the mid 90s. I’m posting this from a phone so no link but details are in Wiki. ---
**Author:** ![Fir\_na\_tine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fir\_na\_tine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fir_na_tine)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/4 "2013-02-09T23:28:16Z")
I remember hearing both zero dark 30 and oh dark hundred during the late 60’s in the USAF. Oh dark hundred was more common. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/5 "2013-02-10T00:06:35Z")
Yeah, oh dark thirty was a phrase a good friend of mine came into college saying as a 17 year old in 1991. I’m guessing it was a favorite of his dad, who was in the Army in the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/6 "2013-02-10T00:13:54Z")
In the Navy (my experience being 1982-2003) it was always “oh dark thirty.” A real time, however, would use “zero” - eg, “zero three hundred.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/7 "2013-02-10T00:16:04Z")
In the Navy I heard “Oh dark thirty” and “zero dark thirty” (the first was more common) to describe some ungodly early hour. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/8 "2013-02-10T01:11:15Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > In the Navy (my experience being 1982-2003) it was always “oh dark thirty.” A real time, however, would use “zero” - eg, “zero three hundred.” Same here, only in the 60s-70s. As an alternate, we used to say “oh bright hundred”, as in get here early. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/9 "2013-02-10T01:14:43Z")
Oh dark thirty. When they serve midrats to the snipes. Probably sliders and bug juice. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/10 "2013-02-10T01:15:14Z")
When I worked for the DoD, I had a lot of military co-workers, (mostly army and air force, and I never heard “zero dark anything”. If they were referring to a time, it was always “oh three hundred” I thought “shock and awe” was an invention by the media with us military ok in the first gulf war. Maybe it originated in the military and was passed to the media. It was almost certainly approved for usage by the military for people who addressed the media. Not sure what branch of the armed services os those things, but it’s similar to a PR office. I think of the scene in Full Metal Jacket, when “search and destroy” was changed to “sweep and clear” ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/11 "2013-02-10T01:44:45Z")
No, it’s from the military. [Shock and awe - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/12 "2013-02-10T01:55:02Z")
In the song/recitation [Battle of Trenton](http://www.mikeagranoff.com/lyrics/Trenton.htm) by Mike Agranoff, written in 1985, he uses Zero Dark Thirty. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/13 "2013-02-10T01:59:34Z")
Of dark thirty. The oh Stands for **Oh my god it’s early** ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/14 "2013-02-10T02:33:44Z")
I thought “o” stands for “oh my god, it’s Robert Loggia” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/15 "2013-02-10T02:35:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the Navy I heard “Oh dark thirty” and “zero dark thirty” (the first was more common) to describe some ungodly early hour. In the Navy, I only ever heard “Oh Dark Thirty” for it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/16 "2013-02-10T02:39:30Z")
U.S. Army and Reserves ('86-'94), and I’ve heard and used both terms (Oh-dark-thrity/zero-dark-thirty) to refer to any generic (or non-specific), ungodly early hour. “Shock & Awe” as a military terminology/doctrin probably goes back further than Sun-Tzu; as specific terms in modern use, **TSBG** answered that one. The difference is that prior to its modern usage, it was more likely concerned with tactical applications, whereas its current usage is in the strategic context. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/17 "2013-02-10T02:51:36Z")
I think the Wikipedia entry for the movie used to say that the correct term was “oh dark thirty,” which I liked - it sounds like it means something like half past dark. But if it said that, it’s been edited out. The rest of the Internet seems to agree that it’s oh dark thirty. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/18 "2013-02-10T02:59:28Z")
I always assumed it was a euphemism, because the first time I heard anyone use a vaguely military-sounding term for an unspecified early hour, it was “oh-fuck-hundred.” The first person I heard use “oh-dark-thirty” was somebody’s mom. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/19 "2013-02-10T03:16:56Z")
I’m a little more familiar with the civilian term “the buttcrack of dawn”. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825/20 "2013-02-10T04:06:29Z")
My understanding is that the distinction between “Oh” and “Zero” are branch-related. Marines (and some Navy) say "zero dark thirty’. Army, AF, etc say “oh dark thirty”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-zero-dark-thirty-and-shock-and-awe-correct-pre-existing-military-phrases/649825.md?page=2)