# Aren't embassies inviolate under international law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 16, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635 "2012-08-16T01:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/81 "2012-08-17T16:37:33Z")
And the US military shot Osama Bin Laden in the head in a nighttime raid in a third country. Clearly, the same thing could happen to Assange in London or Stockholm. Nay, it will _definitely_ happen to Assange… it’s happened before!!1! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/82 "2012-08-17T16:37:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > 'm not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. Are they? It’s not like an airbed and food for one person is that expensive, and I assume the diplomatic contingent are drawing a salary for their time in Britain whether or not they’re actually doing anything at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/83 "2012-08-17T16:41:03Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How is this whole thing going over politically in Ecuador? I’m not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. I have nothing against Assange, it just seems like a waste of money and relations for Ecuador, where is the national interest? Here’s the Web site for one of Quito’s main newspapers. I don’t know if you can read Spanish, but just looking at the home page, it looks like it’s a pretty big deal. > **[El COMERCIO - Noticias de Ecuador y del mundo](https://www.elcomercio.com/)** > > Noticias de Ecuador y del mundo. En El Comercio de Ecuador lee noticias de última hora sobre política, seguridad, Quito, tecnología, entretenimiento, deportes, entre otras. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/84 "2012-08-17T16:42:47Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How is this whole thing going over politically in Ecuador? I’m not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. I have nothing against Assange, it just seems like a waste of money and relations for Ecuador, where is the national interest? Considering that the current government is aligned with the Hugo Chavez anti-“imperialist” movement, and the Ecuadorean president has had pretty consistently high approval ratings, I’d bet the episode is playing fairly well. Nothing like stickin’ it to the Yankee imperialists and their Swedish stooges to make some people happy. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/85 "2012-08-17T16:49:54Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How is this whole thing going over politically in Ecuador? I’m not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. I have nothing against Assange, it just seems like a waste of money and relations for Ecuador, where is the national interest? I’m wondering this myself. It’s an aweful lot of trouble for Ecuador, considering that Assange has no connection to their contry, and in truth is a very inconsequential person. It’s even questionable that they’ll get to thumb their noses at the US, since the US is at least two steps removed from this, if it’s involved at all. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/86 "2012-08-17T16:52:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How is this whole thing going over politically in Ecuador? I’m not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. I have nothing against Assange, it just seems like a waste of money and relations for Ecuador, where is the national interest? Well, I suppose a resident of Ecuador could believe that secret backroom deals tend to screw the people not in the backroom, and therefore believe that exposing how the governments of big wealthy countries like the U.S. cut deals with other governments might help prevent ordinary citizens (especially those of less powerful countries such as Ecuador) from being screwed. It’s a pretty far-fetched, idea, I know, but I suppose some deluded soul could believe it. It’s not clear to me how much money Ecuador is wasting, either-- the extra utility bills from one more person in the office shouldn’t be very much. At least not compared to however much Britain is spending on a full-time intensive police blockade. > [@Ravenman](#): > > And the US military shot Osama Bin Laden in the head in a nighttime raid in a third country. Clearly, the same thing could happen to Assange in London or Stockholm. Nay, it will _definitely_ happen to Assange… it’s happened before!!1! You saw the link about Sweden handing asylum seekers over to the CIA to get tortured, didn’t you? So it’s not like Sweden is some completely different existence where nothing bad can happen to anyone. Or are you saying that Assange is safe because he’s white? ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/87 "2012-08-17T16:54:41Z")
Just an interesting aside, Googling around, it looks like Ecuadorian Embassy is in the same building as the Colombian Embassy. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/88 "2012-08-17T17:01:48Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > > [@grude](#): > > > > How is this whole thing going over politically in Ecuador? I’m not sure how I’d feel as a citizen of a small nation that my government was souring relations and wasting tons of money protecting Assange. I have nothing against Assange, it just seems like a waste of money and relations for Ecuador, where is the national interest? > > Here’s the Web site for one of Quito’s main newspapers. I don’t know if you can read Spanish, but just looking at the home page, it looks like it’s a pretty big deal. > > [http://elcomercio.com/](http://elcomercio.com/) Here’s also the front page from another of Ecuador’s main dailies. > **[Homepage](https://www.freedomforum.org/)** > > The Freedom Forum’s mission is to foster First Amendment freedoms for all. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/89 "2012-08-17T17:12:50Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > You saw the link about Sweden handing asylum seekers over to the CIA to get tortured, didn’t you? So it’s not like Sweden is some completely different existence where nothing bad can happen to anyone. Strictly speaking, it was a matter of deporting asylum seekers whose request for asylum had been denied back to their home country. There isn’t really anything strange about this. What was strange in that particular case was that: A)There were good reasons to grant them asylum(they faced potential torture in Egypt), but it was still denied. and B)For some reason the CIA got involved in the deportation to Egypt. > [@](#): > > Or are you saying that Assange is safe because he’s white? Well, he’s not accused of being an islamic terrorist and if we were to deport him anywhere I would expect it to be to Australia. On a side note, am I the only one here that finds ironic that someone who has built his fame on being, shall we say, an uncomfortable journalist, seeks refuge in Ecuador, a nation which record on freedom of speech and press is far from stellar? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/90 "2012-08-17T17:39:13Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Or are you saying that Assange is safe because he’s white? I’m mocking the idea that Julian Assange’s case is in any way comparable to the cases that have been used as comparisons here. Of course people have been wrongly accused to having terrorist ties, and been either tortured or imprisoned unjustly. It’s clear that many governments have made immoral decisions based on the mere accusation or insinuation of terrorist ties. None of that has anything whatsoever to do with Julian Assange’s case. When the United States starts rounding up “hackivists” with no real, suspected, or imagined ties to terrorist groups and holding them in secret prisons, then you have a case. By the way, is there any evidence that Guantanamo has received new prisoners since Obama was elected? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/91 "2012-08-17T18:13:24Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There is an outstanding warrant for his arrest in Sweden, which I believe has survived a challenge in Swedish court. Realistically in the EU I don’t think it’s normal at all for one country to just ignore valid arrest warrants from another EU country. Well quite. EU citizens are very strongly motivated that criminals who commit crimes in Europe should not be able to evade justice simply by nipping across the nearest (unpoliced) border. They are also equally motivated that they do not want to live in a police state. So, this case really isn’t about Assange at all. It’s about making sure that European Arrest Warrants work, and that innocent journalists who are the victims of malicious accusations don’t have to spend months in jail waiting for trial but can instead be granted bail, and that foreign diplomats can live in London or Stockholm or wherever without facing any particular restrictions. Astute dopers will realise the irony that Assange is making our liberal approach to justice difficult to sustain, and that he seems committed to spending more time living uncomfortably in a makeshift room in the Ecuadorean embassy than living comfortably in a Swedish jail even if he were convicted, which seems unlikely. He hasn’t even be charged by the US?!? So, given the profile, even if he were charged by the US he would not be extradited by either Sweden or the UK without a cast iron agreement that he could not face the death penalty on this or any related charge, since that would breach EU law. Does the US even have a mechanism for giving such a guarantee? It’s all just a bizarre bit of absurdist theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/92 "2012-08-17T18:27:11Z")
Interestingly, per the google map search street view, the Ecuadoran Embassy in London is right next door to Harrods! [Google Map Link](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1R2GGLL_enUS337&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1271&bih=692&wrapid=tlif134522755475710&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ecuador+embassy+london&fb=1&gl=us&hq=ecuador+embassy&hnear=0x47d8a00baf21de75:0x52963a5addd52a99,London,+UK&cid=0,0,13060226119489606936&sa=X&ei=LIsuUPP3GqmpyAHRn4DADw&ved=0CHwQ_BIwAw) They better not let him get in there, he’ll never be found. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/93 "2012-08-17T18:31:25Z")
While not the most routine affair, the U.S. has multiple times in the past agreed not to seek the death penalty against capital defendants extradited to the U.S. from Europe and other countries that prohibit the death penalty. Since we have no evidence Assange has been charged with any crime I can’t know what he might theoretically be charged with, but it probably wouldn’t be a capital offense. It would be something like “conspiracy to release classified documents improperly.” It seems unlikely to me he would be charged with espionage. We do have the death penalty for espionage in the U.S. but only in theory these days, it’s probably been 60 years since we’ve sentenced a spy to death. There is also a very strong chance Assange broke no American laws. If he actively co-conspired with Manning in order to get Manning to release documents maybe that is illegal, but if he just received classified documents he wouldn’t have broken a law. Manning as someone with a security clearance is breaking the law by disclosing classified information, a random dude without a clearance who is just handed classified documents has done nothing improper by disseminating them. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/94 "2012-08-17T18:48:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Are they? It’s not like an airbed and food for one person is that expensive, and I assume the diplomatic contingent are drawing a salary for their time in Britain whether or not they’re actually doing anything at the moment. According to [this site](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2189515/The-WikiLeaks-siege-fiasco-As-tiny-Ecuador-saves-Assange-extradition-granting-asylum-40-police-surround-embassy--steps-outside-ll-pounce.html) the police presence around the embassy is costing the British taxpayer £50,000 a day (around $78,000). Considering that this will likely run on for some months I think we’re looking at a pretty hefty total. I don’t know how that amount is calculated but this will be extra expense, I’m sure for instance the police will be drawing lots of overtime pay for these duties, that’s expensive in itself.) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/95 "2012-08-18T00:38:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Assange is paranoid, and it’s the Swedish judicial system that’s out to get him. “US is in persuit of Assange, cables reveal” > **[US in pursuit of Assange, cables reveal](https://www.theage.com.au/national/us-in-pursuit-of-assange-cables-reveal-20120817-24e8u.html)** > > Australian diplomats have no doubt the United States is still gunning for Julian Assange, according to Foreign Affairs Department documents. The Age is a respected Australian paper, officially the Australian government claims they have no evidence the US is interested in Assange. Leaked Australian diplomatic cables seem to indicate Australian diplomats believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/96 "2012-08-18T02:28:07Z")
The use of the term “British soil” sort of points out the misunderstanding of diplomatic courtesies. The Ecuadorian embassy in London is on the same national “soil” as the rest of the United Kingdom. Assange is on British soil inside the Ecuadorian embassy just as he is outside it. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/97 "2012-08-18T04:37:32Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Kind of besides the point, though, since Assange (having not been detained in a war zone or captured in relation to a terrorist plot) wouldn’t go anywhere besides a regular old court, jail, whatever. emphasis added > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Tell that to Maher Arar, the Canadian who was detained by US officials in New York, who then sent him to Syria for a year’s worth of torture, without any charges, due process or court authorisation. > [@](#): > > Both men were asylum seekers in Sweden, and suspected of terrorist activities in Egypt > **[Sweden Violated Torture Ban in CIA Rendition](https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition)** > [@Grumman](#): > > Or the asylum seekers Mohammed al-Zari and Ahmed Agiza, [who were tortured after Sweden handed them over to the CIA.](http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition) > [@](#): > > The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda > **[Maher Arar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar)** > > Council of Canadians Human Rights Award, 2005. > Letelier-Moffitt Human Rights Award, 2006. > Nation Builder, The Globe and Mail, 2006. > British Columbia Civil Liberties Association Reg Robson Award, 2007. > Honorary Doctorate of Letters, Nipissing University, 2007. > Maher Arar (Arabic: ماهر عرار) (born 1970) is a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who has resided in Canada since 1987. > Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in Se... I specifically said that I didn’t think that Assange was at risk of torture because he hasn’t been implicated in terrorist plots. I’m not sure how bringing up those tortured in Syria or Egypt who were suspected of terrorist activities contradicts this. Of course, if you really believe that the US gov is going to try to link Assange to al Qaeda or a similar organization, I’d be interested in hearing what makes you that this is likely. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/98 "2012-08-18T08:00:43Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > According to [this site](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2189515/The-WikiLeaks-siege-fiasco-As-tiny-Ecuador-saves-Assange-extradition-granting-asylum-40-police-surround-embassy--steps-outside-ll-pounce.html) the police presence around the embassy is costing the British taxpayer £50,000 a day (around $78,000). Considering that this will likely run on for some months I think we’re looking at a pretty hefty total. I don’t know how that amount is calculated but this will be extra expense, I’m sure for instance the police will be drawing lots of overtime pay for these duties, that’s expensive in itself.) The person I was responding to was talking about Ecuador’s costs, not the UK’s. > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I specifically said that I didn’t think that Assange was at risk of torture because he hasn’t been implicated in terrorist plots. I’m not sure how bringing up those tortured in Syria or Egypt who were suspected of terrorist activities contradicts this. It’s not like that’s stopped them. Just look at how they treated Bradley Manning. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/99 "2012-08-18T08:07:03Z")
Another thing I don’t get: I believe I’d much rather be in prison in Sweden for a while than live in Ecuador for the rest of my life (which doesn’t say as much about Ecuador as it does about Swedish prisons). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635/100 "2012-08-18T09:15:45Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > Another thing I don’t get: I believe I’d much rather be in prison in Sweden for a while Rightly or wrongly Assange believes that going to sweden will end up with him in the US and getting the same treatment as Bradley Manning. Evidence of IRC chats between Manning and Assange was presented during Manning’s trial. Personally I find it hard to believe that the US wouldn’t try and make a conspiracy / espionage charge stick if they could get their hands on Assange. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-embassies-inviolate-under-international-law/631635.md?page=6)