# Aren't the early, very powerful elves and humans in Tolkien's world kind of like Gods? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 17, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614 "2010-06-17T23:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/1 "2010-06-17T23:22:28Z")
While not identified as “gods” they seems to have the ability to go physically and magically toe to toe with demi-gods, and other creatures that are far above later elf and human power levels. Later men and elves are (it seems) orders of magnitude less powerful than these early versions. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/2 "2010-06-18T00:00:32Z")
The early men, definitely not. They didn’t live as long as even the Numenoreans. Excepting a few outliers like Beren & Turin, the most powerful Men were the first few generations of the Men of Westernesse. The Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees, maybe. But not from their own point of view, because they were living in proximity to the Valar and Maiar, the least of whom were far mightier. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/3 "2010-06-18T00:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > But not from their own point of view, because they were living in proximity to the Valar and Maiar, the least of whom were far mightier. Even at that, though, Fingolfin was still able to make a pretty good showing of himself vs. Morgoth, who’s supposed to have been the most powerful of the Valar. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/4 "2010-06-18T01:52:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even at that, though, Fingolfin was still able to make a pretty good showing of himself vs. Morgoth, who’s supposed to have been the most powerful of the Valar. I wrote _Valar and Maiar_ on purpose, because I was excluding Morgoth, who was no longer counted among the Valar at that time (though he was still an Ainu, of course). By the time he and Fingolfin fought their great monomachy, the Dark Lord had squandered (or dispersed) much of his physical power; he was not the Ainu he was ere the coming the the Children, or even ere the poisoning of the Trees. Fingolfin could never have stood against the earlier Melkor, and Tulkas or even Eonwe would have crushed him in picoseconds. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/5 "2010-06-18T03:14:16Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I wrote _Valar and Maiar_ on purpose, because I was excluding Morgoth, who was no longer counted among the Valar at that time (though he was still an Ainu, of course). By the time he and Fingolfin fought their great monomachy, the Dark Lord had squandered (or dispersed) much of his physical power; he was not the Ainu he was ere the coming the the Children, or even ere the poisoning of the Trees. Fingolfin could never have stood against the earlier Melkor, and Tulkas or even Eonwe would have crushed him in picoseconds. Glorfindel took down a balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. Of course, he died, too, but it shows that the strongest elves could be at least something of a match for Maiar, anyway. (Although, again, that depends…individual Maiar ranged in strength along a spectrum…they weren’t identical) And yes, the Edain weren’t all that strong or great or anything. It was the mixture of elf, human and maia blood in Elros (along with the Valar gifting them with longevity) that made the Numenoreans so great. Also, virtue…after Numenor sank and the kingdoms separated, it was the northern Dunedain who retained the vigor and longevity of their ancestry (to a point), not the soft and decadent Gondorians. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/6 "2010-06-18T03:21:15Z")
Yes, they’re gods. Literally. Many human cultures have gods who (so historians and anthropologists speculate) started out as their real-life ancestors, whose names and deeds grew in the telling over many generations. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/7 "2010-06-18T06:34:18Z")
Tolkien had a recurring theme in that things today are a pale shadow of what they used to be. Back in the day, giants walked the earth and men were manlier, and women womanlier, etc. But cast aside all the metaphors and see what Tolkien’s monsters did: they instilled fear or the good ones inspired awe. The message being don’t be overcome by your fears, act for good and do what you know is right. The Nazgul, Shelob, the Balrog and Sauron are all quite fearsome, but aside from the fear they emanate, they are only a bit stronger than normal, and can always be overcome with Providence and good moral values. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/8 "2010-06-18T07:07:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Glorfindel took down a balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. Of course, he died, too, but it shows that the strongest elves could be at least something of a match for Maiar, anyway. (Although, again, that depends…individual Maiar ranged in strength along a spectrum…they weren’t identical) Don’t forget that Gríma Wormtongue also killed a Maia, so under the right circumstances a human could do it too. (Yay us.) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/9 "2010-06-18T07:10:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Tolkien had a recurring theme in that things today are a pale shadow of what they used to be. Back in the day, giants walked the earth and men were manlier, and women womanlier, etc. A similar theme found in classics like the Iliad and even in Herodotus’ work. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/10 "2010-06-18T10:22:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Glorfindel took down a balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. Of course, he died, too, but it shows that the strongest elves could be at least something of a match for Maiar, anyway. (Although, again, that depends…individual Maiar ranged in strength along a spectrum…they weren’t identical) You are correct, and I was wrong. I had forgotten about Glorfindel. That said, I don’t think the “average” Noldo or Vanya could have done that either. I’ve always taken Glorfindel’s great victory, notable though it was, as the Elves’ best, on his best day and in utter desperation, taking out the Balrog’s lost, when he was just getting over the flu and was also depressed over a bad breakup. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/11 "2010-06-18T10:38:55Z")
All I know is, **Feanor** was one scary dude. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/12 "2010-06-18T11:49:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I had forgotten about Glorfindel. That said, I don’t think the “average” Noldo or Vanya could have done that either. I’ve always taken Glorfindel’s great victory, notable though it was, as the Elves’ best, on his best day and in utter desperation, taking out the Balrog’s lost, when he was just getting over the flu and was also depressed over a bad breakup. 😃 Hell, he wasn’t even the first elf to take out a Balrog. Ecthelion of the fountain took Gothmog (lord of the Balrogs no less) for a mutually terminal bath. Killing a Balrog and surviving, now that’s the trick. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/13 "2010-06-18T12:19:48Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Don’t forget that Gríma Wormtongue also killed a Maia, so under the right circumstances a human could do it too. (Yay us.) Yeah, but Saruman was definitely not at his best at that point. He’d been kicked out of the Istari by Gandalf by then, and his staff broken. The staves seem to be power focuses of some sort to the Istari as well as being a badge of “office”. And Saruman had squandered his birthright as a Maia, much like the Gondorians squandered their ancestral strength, in immoral activities (Tolkien was big on immorality weakening beings). ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/14 "2010-06-18T12:58:07Z")
Womanlier? Is that a real word? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/15 "2010-06-18T13:14:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah, but Saruman was definitely not at his best at that point. He’d been kicked out of the Istari by Gandalf by then, and his staff broken. The staves seem to be power focuses of some sort to the Istari as well as being a badge of “office”. And Saruman had squandered his birthright as a Maia, much like the Gondorians squandered their ancestral strength, in immoral activities (Tolkien was big on immorality weakening beings). Besides, Saruman (and Gandalf) had been given actual human bodies. They were _not_ maiars incarnating themselves as human. This meant they were as able to have their bodies slain as the elves. It was only the Calaquendi (elves of the light, who’d lived in the presence of the Valar and the trees) that were so mighty, and occasionally godlike. They also seemed to be able to learn to use a little of the ‘creative’ power of the Ainur, and alter reality a bit via song (A la Finrod vs. Sauron). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/16 "2010-06-18T14:35:45Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Besides, Saruman (and Gandalf) had been given actual human bodies. They were _not_ maiars incarnating themselves as human. This meant they were as able to have their bodies slain as the elves. > > It was only the Calaquendi (elves of the light, who’d lived in the presence of the Valar and the trees) that were so mighty, and occasionally godlike. They also seemed to be able to learn to use a little of the ‘creative’ power of the Ainur, and alter reality a bit via song (A la Finrod vs. Sauron). I think you have to add Luthien to thi number, though of course she was half Maia. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/17 "2010-06-18T16:44:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think you have to add Luthien to thi number, though of course she was half Maia. I consider her a special case. She probably larnt at her mama’s knee just how to use her powers. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/18 "2010-06-18T16:48:03Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I consider her a special case. Well, so do I. That’s why I pointed out the half-Maia thing. And her powers were somewhat specialized anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/19 "2010-06-18T16:50:21Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Well, so do I. That’s why I pointed out the half-Maia thing. And her powers were somewhat specialized anyway. Pity JRRT was rather prudish. I’d love to have learned more about such specialized skills. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614/20 "2010-06-18T16:54:45Z")
Ha. Beren would never kiss and tell… and neither would the Professor, who likened himself to Beren and his wife Edith to Luthien, as shown on their tombstone: [Vacation and Hotel Reviews, Travel Photos and Pictures, Travel Deals - IgoUgo](http://photos.igougo.com/images/p285813-Oxford-Tolkiens_grave.jpg) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arent-the-early-very-powerful-elves-and-humans-in-tolkiens-world-kind-of-like-gods/543614.md?page=2)