# ARG220 and Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 1999, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729 "1999-09-10T23:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/41 "1999-09-12T03:53:00Z")
Oops, I mean “Gaud,” not “Guad.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/42 "1999-09-12T05:27:00Z")
What lie, you ask, Adam? When, you ask, Adam? Here’s a copy of my posting in the “Ancient History, I know, but” thread: > [@](#): > > ## Monty Member posted 09-10-1999 08:41 PM > > ARG220, Member, posted a lie on 09-10-1999 at 05:59 PM, to wit: > > ## quote: > > ## Both you, and Monty have said that you don’t see any contradictions in the Bible vs. BOM, and that you have both studied the Bible. > > And as Adam himself asked me, I am pointing that out to him. > > Adam: what I did say was in response you your asking how the Book of Mormon could be true with all its contradicitons; contradictions of which you yourself have no knowledge because you refuse to read the thing for yourself. I merely pointed out that the Bible also contains contradictions. > > ## Let us assume that the Old and New Testaments are part of the one Bible. Then let’s cruise on over to Exodus 20:7 which states: quote: > > ## Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. > > ## Now Matthew 12:21 states: quote: > > ## Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. > > Now, I’d say that “all manner of sin and blasphemy” would include that which was explicitly stated in Exodus as something for which the Lord would not hold someone guiltless. > > Looks to me like a contradiction. But then I never said that either the Bible nor the Book of Mormon was without them. > > You did, Adam. You also lied when you said that I said the Book of Mormon was without contradiction. > > Now here’s your chance to admit you lied recently. (See above.) Does this aid your feeble memory, son? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/43 "1999-09-12T05:29:00Z")
Would the moderator be so kind as to resize my posting above so the thing fits in the browser window. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/44 "1999-09-12T06:41:00Z")
All right Monty. Here we go…again. I said > [@](#): > > Both you, and Monty have said that you don’t see any contradictions in the Bible vs. BOM, and that you have both studied the Bible. You say this is a lie. Note, I said **Bible VS BOM** I’ll show you that it isn’t a lie. In _Life in Heaven: Part 3_ I said that: > [@](#): > > When you compare certain teachings of the Mormon faith against the Bible, they are in direct contradiction. To which YOU responded on 8-5-99: > [@](#): > > Not when I compare them, young’un. Then I said > [@](#): > > Do you care that the LDS church has perverted God’s Holy Word? To which Monty replied: > [@](#): > > I don’t believe the LDS have perverted the Word See Monty? No lies. And I never said that you said there were no contradictions in the BOM itself. I’ve been talking about Bible VS BOM, or more specifically, Bible VS Mormon teachings, i.e BOM, D&C…and whatever else you use. Please don’t accuse me of lying again. Thank you. ## Adam “Life is hard…but God is good” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/45 "1999-09-12T07:09:00Z")
Adam, until you actually read the Book of Mormon any comparisons and/or contradictions you have to make are worthless. Note that this is my opinion and not “truth” or “fact” as you so often mis-use the words. BTW, arrogant statements followed by happy or winky faces get tedious after a while. It says _If you agree with this statement, fine. If you don’t, I was just kidding._ ---
**Author:** ![Momotaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Momotaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Momotaro)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/46 "1999-09-12T07:13:00Z")
Ahem, I think you guys are worrying about meaningless distinctions. I trust what comes from my own heart, not from a book. I don’t worry about things I can never verify and that don’t have any moral significance anyway. Just be good. * * * Only humans do inhuman things. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/47 "1999-09-12T09:00:00Z")
I have a question for ARG: Why do you get all het up about possible contradictions between the Christian Bible and the Book or Mormon (which, I understand, YOU HAVE NEVER READ so have NO BASIS for making an evaluation) yet seem to have no problems with contradictions that occur within the Christian Bible (as evidenced by a responses of one little happy face and then complete lack of acknowledgement when it is brought up)? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/48 "1999-09-12T14:05:00Z")
Gaudere said: > [@](#): > > Some of the people who witness door-to-door make Adam look like a bastion of logic and reasonableness. Of course, if you just close the door in their faces, you don’t have to worry about that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/49 "1999-09-12T14:41:00Z")
I can assure you, Adam, my wife does not want to talk to you. She gave up letting religious nutbags preach to, witness to, and try to “re-save” her a long time ago, and hasn’t the slightest desire to go through it again. She gave me permission to use her comments on the message board, but she has gone through so much pain because of people just like you, I am not going to inflict it on her again. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 1999, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/50 "1999-09-13T05:00:00Z")
Slythe: You just don’t like my smiley faces, and winks. Perhaps I use them too often. It’s just a habit from using Instant Message on AOL all the time, and having conversations where there are no words. Just a bunch of smiling, frowning, laughing, and basic silliness. Kat: There are no contradictions in the Bible. And if you say there are, then it may just be an example of misinterpretation. For example, I went to that Atheists of America site, and looked at all their Biblical “contradictions,” and found that none of them were even relevant. It’s just a matter of context, and interpretation. Phil: I figured your wife wouldn’t want to talk to me, and if she did, you probably would discourage her anyway. I don’t want to preach to her, or you. What I REALLY want to know is what happened to your hearts. I just want your story Phil, that’s all. So far, you’ve been quite uncooperative (is that a word?) in giving me any info though. Go figure. Oh, BTW Kat: One does not have to read an entire book to see contradictions. One only need go to those web sites I mentioned, and they provide the passages in the Bible, BOM, and D&C for you. Then they compare them and show that sometimes, the Mormon text is completely OPPOSITE of what the Bible says. I can just see Monty’s next post now. I’ll wait and see if my predictions about it are correct, to see how well I actually know him. ## Adam “Life is hard…but God is good” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 1999, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/51 "1999-09-13T05:15:00Z")
Adam, so: When the Bible contradicts itself, it’s all a matter of “context and interpretation.” When the Book of Mormon “contradicts” itself, it’s obviously false. Might I suggest that you use the same standard to judge the BOM as you do the Bible? Could there **possibly** be other interpretations than those anti-Mormon web sites give? (GASP!) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 1999, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/52 "1999-09-13T05:24:00Z")
Let me put that another way: When the Bible contradicts the Bible, it’s a matter of “context and interpretation.” When the Book of Mormon “contradicts” the Bible, it’s obviously false (to you). Two different measuring sticks. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/53 "1999-09-12T18:08:00Z")
Adam, I didn’t discourage you in any way. I said, “You know the guy I told you about from the SDMB? He wants to know if you can e-mail you.” She gave me a one-word answer: “No.” I’ve told you and everyone else on this MB as much of my story vis a vis religion as you could possible need to know. It’s not my fault you haven’t read it. Oh, BTW, nothing happened to our hearts. Something happened to our brains. It’s called “learning.” You ought to try it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/54 "1999-09-12T18:21:00Z")
Adam, here’s a couple of pro-LDS sites you can read through if you want to: [Response to anti-Mormon Critics](http://www.lightplanet.com/response/) [All About Mormons](http://www.mormons.org) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/55 "1999-09-12T19:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Look, if you’re looking for the truth, then go out and buy those books I told you about. You know, the ones at your local Bible bookstore? They will show you each Mormon contradiction, in step by step detail. Hm, well, as long as you’re going to look at contradictions in other religions’ holy books, you might want to take a look at your own. Try [http://www.uib.no/zoo/brage/bible/1innerr.html](http://www.uib.no/zoo/brage/bible/1innerr.html) [/quote] This is not to insult your religion, or anything. Frankly, I don’t care whether someone’s sacred text is contradictory or not. But I just hate to see residents of glass houses throwing stones. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/56 "1999-09-12T21:34:00Z")
Adam: I’ve been meaning to respond to the following quote of yours: > [@](#): > > Bill: I’m sorry. I just went through and browsed many web sites dealing with the contradictions of Mormonism. It’s truly sad, because your very own BOM contradicts itself, as does every other thing you read. My dear Lord, it’s all one big ball of lies, and confusion. **No wonder you don’t know what’s up or down.** Have you ever heard of “schizophrenia” or “mental illness”? It’s true, I sometimes **don’t** know what’s up or down. But that’s not because my religion is faulty. I’ve suffered from paranoid schizophrenia (although I don’t believe it to be a physical disease in my case) for more than 10 years. Mostly, I stay in my small basement room, with expeditions out of here only to use the bathroom, pick up some food, or get the mail. I suffer from fear of leaving my house, also known as agoraphobia. The point I’m getting at is, when you’re alone with yourself virtually all of the time, you don’t get feedback on your ideas and words. And sometimes I say things that, when I look back on them, seem extremely foolish, arrogant, or (insert derogatory term here). This, I believe, is the primary cause of my not knowing “up from down” sometimes: no feedback. Even the most sane person will talk to himself when left alone for long enough, and what he says may not make sense to others, especially when those others are on the Net and not in person. Sometimes I have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. This is no reason, however, to say that Mormonism is the cause of my troubles. Cyberian54 tried to convince me that I must “get out of Utah” as fast as I possibly could, as have others on the AOL SDMB. Utah and Mormonism are not the causes of my mental problems. You might as well blame madness on the full moon as believe that the LDS church causes my problems. ---
**Author:** ![smilingjaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@smilingjaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingjaws)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/57 "1999-09-12T21:56:00Z")
I don’t want to get into this war, but I would like to clarify my words on the nature of God as determined by orthodox Christians. The point I was trying to make is that man cannot become God. Jesus existed as God (not one of many but as one of the trinity) for all eternity. He became a man–and was Wholly God and Wholly Man. To think that a man could become so pure and so great as to become God is the heresy. I would also like to point out that God has declared himself to be a Jealous God and has commanded Christians not to worship other gods. Debating mormonism & Christianity is one of those things that can take years. Frankly, I think eveyone should just chill. Maybe Adam doesn’t have hours and hours to spend on this board–I hope this young man has a life outside the straight dope. Snarkberry–I think the Mormon church must provide you a lot of support in your current situation and I congratulate you in finding a structure that makes you feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/58 "1999-09-12T22:23:00Z")
friend adam, ``` you wrote: Only one book can be correct, right? You can't have two books that contradict each other, and still hold that BOTH of them are God's true Word, right? Yet that is exactly what Mormons do. Go ahead Gaudere, read the Bible, and BOM. Then maybe you can talk to the mormons, and show them the contradictions. the difficulty the rest of us have in discussing religion and the differences between religions with people of your particular degree of faith is exactly in the contradictions.. you are completely unwilling to even imagine that it is remotely possible that god may have revealed himself to others in a manner different than he has revealed himself to you. ``` * * * “don’t get strung out by the way that i look, don’t judge a book by it’s cover” (tim curry as dr. franknfurter in rhps) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/59 "1999-09-12T23:09:00Z")
Jaws: Actually, the commandment about having no other gods was addressed to the Jews. Jews see the deification of a man as blasphemy and thus do not consider Christianity to be a “new and improved” version of Judaism. Adam: Okay; how about telling us all how you know that those sites are actually quoting the books they’re disparaging? I mean it’s not all that hard to get access to the Book of Mormon, to the Koran, to Science & Health, to the Analects of Confucius, or to any other faith’s books now. You, apparently, are placing your faith in a man without checking something which is quite easy to check. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 1999, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729/60 "1999-09-12T23:12:00Z")
Before my last posting above gets misconstrued: I, being a Christian (regardless of what ARG220 thinks), do see Christianity as a continuation of Judaism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arg220-and-mormonism/16729.md?page=4)