# Argent Towers, a moment of your time. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227 "2010-02-16T18:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/1 "2010-02-16T18:23:45Z")
Argent Towers, your zeal to improve minds and expand worldviews is admirable. I question, however, your methods in [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12124547#post12124547) Frankly, your actions are dangerous. Curtis has said that his family is religious. What happens if he reads Hogg and they find it and ask him about it and he leads them to your comments.? Laugh if you must but this sort of thing has happened before. Regardless of the intent, telling a 13 year old in a private correspondence to read a book that is obscene by any standard looks bad. It looks bad for you, it looks bad for the board, it looks bad for everyone who stood by while this goes on. Despite what praises you have for Curtis’s mental state, he is still a 13 year old and the literature you suggest is very strong. You really couldn’t think of a slightly more age appropriate book to recommend? ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/2 "2010-02-16T18:27:12Z")
I just wikied _Hogg_. Jesus, **Argent Towers** , have you no common sense at all? I’d have been bullshit if I had found out that an adult had recommended that kind of book to my kid. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/3 "2010-02-16T18:36:01Z")
Lighten up, Francises. Frances. Whatever. Everybody unclench. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/4 "2010-02-16T18:41:25Z")
OK, very calmly - What we have here is a situation where a member of this board used the PM system to recommend what Argent Towers insists in **transgressive literature** , but what some would call child pornography to an underaged member of the board. I do NOT believe Argent Towers is a pedophile. I think he is a gold-plated idiot. But I think that he needs to stay far, far away from kids if he really thinks this is appropriate behavior. I know for a fact that this was reported to board management, and the reporter has not received a response. Cesario, for all that his posts disturbed the hell out of people, never as far as we know tried to contact any young member. Stage Manager was banned for “grooming” a young poster, and we know all about the other punishment some board administrators thought he deserved. I don’t agree with that administrator’s total overreaction, but surely some action is required other than just [telling people to ignore it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12124547&postcount=85) Because of this, and the total mismanaging of the Cesario situation, and a hundred other reasons, I really don’t recognize this board as the one I joined. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/5 "2010-02-16T18:43:56Z")
I’m about the world’s least uptight parent, and if I found out someone had recommended that book to my 13 year old, I’d beat the everloving fuck out of him. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/6 "2010-02-16T18:47:16Z")
Maybe I was over the top with that one. It slipped my mind how young the guy is, because honestly to me he comes off as being older. I don’t want to get him in trouble with his parents, certainly. I do strongly believe in the principles that I mentioned before; I was never really shielded from anything that might be considered disturbing when I was a kid, and I think I turned out better for it because it made me less likely to get emotional and shocked about art or literature that’s transgressive or jarring (and less likely to get emotional and shocked about stuff, in general.) I think keeping a cool head even when confronted with unpleasant things is very important. I think there are some big double standards in our culture about this stuff and that the double standards about what is and is not disturbing are actually worse than the things themselves. (Why is it, for instance, that parents are generally so lenient about allowing kids to see gratuitous and explicit violence, but blow a gasket over anything sexual? Why is it that _Saving Private Ryan_ wouldn’t be considered obscene and certain novels I’ve mentioned in the past by Ballard or Delany would, even though the former is an explicit description of a real war that claimed millions of real human lives and ravaged entire countries, whereas the latter are works of complete fiction (and are presented in text, not visually.) I don’t believe that reading literature which presents social and sexual taboos - even _extreme_ ones - leads to someone’s mind instantly being corrupted and that person becoming some kind of sick monster. That’s just not how it works. With all of that said, this young gentleman is here of his own free will, he is old enough to be a member here (which, necessarily, means that he’s old enough to take in all of the content that is potentially posted here) and in the end, I don’t think recommending that someone read a book - even one that is very vulgar and taboo - is something to get worked up about. It’s not like I would tell a little kid to read something like that. But this is a guy who is here, voluntarily, posting every single day multiple times about serious topics like politics and theology, with an extreme ideological bent. He also frequently espouses religious views that I think many people here would find extremely dogmatic. If he can dish it out, he can be prepared to take it. If he’s going to push his literature on us, I have the right to push mine. And _something_ tells me that more people have grown up to be terminally fucked-up individuals because of things that they read in the Holy Bible than in any book written by J.G. Ballard or Samuel Delany. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/7 "2010-02-16T18:50:04Z")
Is Curtis Lemay actually a kid? Has that been verified off-board? Based on what posts of his I’ve read, I’d be inclined to guess it’s a persona an adult chooses to use at this board. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/8 "2010-02-16T18:50:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And _something_ tells me that more people have grown up to be terminally fucked-up individuals because of things that they read in the Holy Bible than in any book written by J.G. Ballard or Samuel Delany. Translation…“Uh, hey, look over there! Not me.” ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/9 "2010-02-16T18:52:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Is Curtis Lemay actually a kid? Has that been verified off-board? Based on what posts of his I’ve read, I’d be inclined to guess it’s a persona an adult chooses to use at this board. I know some people think he is an (older) troll, but he presents himself as 13 and since there is no evidence to the contrary I think the best thing to do is to err on the side of caution here. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/10 "2010-02-16T18:53:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t believe that reading literature which presents social and sexual taboos - even _extreme_ ones - leads to someone’s mind instantly being corrupted and that person becoming some kind of sick monster. That’s just not how it works. You’re forgetting the potential for mental images that freak the everliving hell out of the reader, trigger nightmares, and might even induce severe aversions or phobias of various kinds. Just go to the recent “I was too young to read it, and yet I did” thread in CS for examples. That’s not something to recommend to the average or even “above-average” reader without a disclaimer. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/11 "2010-02-16T18:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Duke] Translation…“Uh, hey, look over there! Not me.” [/QUOTE] Not really, no. I did what I did as a counterattack to what I see as aggressive Christian demagoguery. (Which I think has the right to be espoused here, just as my views do.) Unlike a lot of other people here, though, I don’t believe in debating the religion itself, picking it to pieces, and telling others how stupid they are for believing in it. That is just an endless cycle that goes around and around because of mutual intolerance. Instead what I did is attempt to open a whole other door of thought - issuing, as it were, a challenge to this ideology based in literature. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/12 "2010-02-16T18:55:28Z")
Perhaps, but it is difficult for me to work up any real outrage unless there is a real child involved. This thread is shaping up to be a proper pile-on and, as long as we are being cautious, I don’t want to start stoning Argent Towers if all he did was recommend porn to a troll. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/13 "2010-02-16T18:56:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > With all of that said, this young gentleman is here of his own free will, he is old enough to be a member here (which, necessarily, means that he’s old enough to take in all of the content that is potentially posted here) and in the end, I don’t think recommending that someone read a book - even one that is very vulgar and taboo - is something to get worked up about. > > It’s not like I would tell a little kid to read something like that. But this is a guy who is here, voluntarily, posting every single day multiple times about serious topics like politics and theology, with an extreme ideological bent. He also frequently espouses religious views that I think many people here would find extremely dogmatic. If he can dish it out, he can be prepared to take it. If he’s going to push his literature on us, I have the right to push mine. And _something_ tells me that more people have grown up to be terminally fucked-up individuals because of things that they read in the Holy Bible than in any book written by J.G. Ballard or Samuel Delany. :rolleyes: Shit, I’m not even old enough to read an explicit book about a child named “Cocksucker” being repeatedly raped and abused by grown men. If you think _anything_ on the SDMB is comparable to this plot description, please point me to that thread. > [@](#): > > The novel is told from the perspective of an eleven-year-old boy who, after being pimped in his friend’s basement, joins up with Franklin “Hogg” Hargus, a trucker and rapist-for-hire. The boy, without name but frequently referred to as “cocksucker”, satisfies the extreme sexual demands of everyone around him without, until the novel’s final word, ever speaking. The narrator witnesses brutality after brutality, describing events in a flat tone of realism. He is treated by the men as property or disposable, even being sold to an unemployed dockworker for $15. The book’s climax comes when Hogg finally expresses some affection for the boy, who is already plotting an escape. It’s not really a surprise to me that you think Curtis is older, since you both seem to have about the same level of mental maturity. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/14 "2010-02-16T18:58:27Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > I know some people think he is an (older) troll, but he presents himself as 13 and since there is no evidence to the contrary I think the best thing to do is to err on the side of caution here. Or simply not feed him. ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/15 "2010-02-16T18:58:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Not really, no. I did what I did as a counterattack to what I see as aggressive Christian demagoguery. (Which I think has the right to be espoused here, just as my views do.) Unlike a lot of other people here, though, I don’t believe in debating the religion itself, picking it to pieces, and telling others how stupid they are for believing in it. That is just an endless cycle that goes around and around because of mutual intolerance. > > Instead what I did is attempt to open a whole other door of thought - issuing, as it were, a challenge to this ideology based in literature. …so your goal was to fight theology with images of a kid being graphically sodomized by a variety of adults. Ok! ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/16 "2010-02-16T19:01:11Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Not really, no. I did what I did as a counterattack to what I see as aggressive Christian demagoguery. (Which I think has the right to be espoused here, just as my views do.) Unlike a lot of other people here, though, I don’t believe in debating the religion itself, picking it to pieces, and telling others how stupid they are for believing in it. That is just an endless cycle that goes around and around because of mutual intolerance. > > Instead what I did is attempt to open a whole other door of thought - issuing, as it were, a challenge to this ideology based in literature. None of which, of course, justifies sending a 13-year-old kid a “recommendation” of a book which describes kids like him being sodomized. Your next justification? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/17 "2010-02-16T19:01:44Z")
It’s one thing to recommend that book in that thread, but to me there’s something rather creepy about PMing it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/18 "2010-02-16T19:03:09Z")
Dismissing it as “porn,” too, is an oversimplification. Norman Mailer himself has praised the book as “having serious literary merit.” The author is a critically acclaimed and well-respected figure in the literary world. I hate hammering this word over and over again, but it’s transgressive fiction. That’s not the same thing as pornography as much as some people insist that it is. The novel has a narrative and it has a tremendous amount of subtlety and some interesting philosophical messages. (It is also, quite simply, not sexually arousing.) > [@](#): > > …so your goal was to fight theology with images of a kid being graphically sodomized by a variety of adults. > > Ok! What images did I present? It’s a novel. Again, you guys are assigning too much power to the written word. [QUOTE=Duke] None of which, of course, justifies sending a 13-year-old kid a “recommendation” of a book which describes kids like him being sodomized. Your next justification? [/QUOTE] “Kids like him?” Could you explain how there is any similarity between these “kids?” ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/19 "2010-02-16T19:05:23Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > It’s one thing to recommend that book in that thread, but to me there’s something rather creepy about PMing it. I did so because I did not want to mention the book by name. I saw that when I used to do that, it bothered people, so I stopped doing it. I merely said in the thread that I would like to recommend him a book. You can call it creepy; I was just trying to discreetly avoid discussion of a book which many people on this board have said they did not want to see discussed! And yet here they are, discussing it! Bringing up its title (which I didn’t do)! Linking to graphic excerpts from it! ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227/20 "2010-02-16T19:05:26Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t believe that reading literature which presents social and sexual taboos - even _extreme_ ones - leads to someone’s mind instantly being corrupted and that person becoming some kind of sick monster. That’s just not how it works. The point you seem to be missing is that while you think that, it is the parents who make the decisions as to what their kids are exposed to. Anyone should at least use some common sense and respect that. Even if you disagree. > [@](#): > > With all of that said, this young gentleman is here of his own free will, he is old enough to be a member here (which, necessarily, means that he’s old enough to take in all of the content that is potentially posted here) and in the end, I don’t think recommending that someone read a book - even one that is very vulgar and taboo - is something to get worked up about. Again, not your call. As I said, as a parent, I would be quite pissed if my kid at 13 had said Mr. Argent Towers (or any adult) on a message board said he should read this book. > [@](#): > > If he’s going to push his literature on us, I have the right to push mine. You may have the _right_ to do so, but you’re acting stupidly to recommend that kind of material to a 13 year old. In short, use you’re fucking common sense when dealing with kids (and make no mistake a 13 year old is still a kid). The whole issue of whether Curtis is really 13 years old not withstanding. ETA: it is kind of creepy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argent-towers-a-moment-of-your-time/529227.md?page=2)