# Argh the English Language, Part LXVII **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002 "2019-11-04T21:41:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/1 "2019-11-04T21:41:28Z")
So, an “employer” “employs” (v.t.) an “employee.” That’s simple enough. But a “guarantor” (as on a debt) makes a promise to a person or agency (the debt holder) who is not called the “guarantee”, nor does that term “guarantee” refer to the person whose debt he is promising to make good on as a backstop (the debtor), but instead to the promise itself. What? For that matter, why do I get a product “warranty” as a “guarantee” that it will work properly for a good amount of time? Why is it not a “guaranty”? And just who is doing exactly what in “manating” the manatees??? I’m freaking out here, man, help me out (or get me in deeper)! ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/2 "2019-11-05T05:30:55Z")
Why doesn’t a ‘planer’ fly planes? Instead of shaping wood. Wouldn’t a wood shaper be a ‘wooder’? How is a ‘saw’ a cutting tool and tall tale? How is ‘sage’ a spice, a bush and a wise person? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/3 "2019-11-05T06:12:44Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > But a “guarantor” (as on a debt) makes a promise to a person or agency (the debt holder) who is not called the “guarantee”, nor does that term “guarantee” refer to the person whose debt he is promising to make good on as a backstop (the debtor), but instead to the promise itself. What? The terminology is confusing, I agree; but it may make more sense if you think of it in different terms. Party A is willing to loan money to Party B (a simple loan contract). Let’s call Party A the Obligee, and Party B the Principal. The Obligee wants to make darn sure that it gets paid back, so it asks for a third party to guarantee the repayment: Party C, who acts as a guarantor, but whom we will call the Surety. Now, if the Principal fails to repay the debt on time, the Surety will pay the Obligee the amount of the loan. This is a very simple explanation–“surety bonding,” as it is known, can get very complex. But using the proper terms for the parties involved (i.e. staying away from “guarantor” and “guarantee” and “debtor” and “creditor” and so on), helps: – Principal: The party who owes money, or some other obligation. – Obligee: The party to whom the Principal owes money, or some other obligation. – Surety: The party who makes sure the Obligee gets paid regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/4 "2019-11-05T08:22:58Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > For that matter, why do I get a product “warranty” as a “guarantee” that it will work properly for a good amount of time? Why is it not a “guaranty”? It is, you just use an alternate spelling. As to “why”, the TLDR is “for historical reasons”. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/5 "2019-11-05T21:44:23Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > So, an “employer” “employs” (v.t.) an “employee.” That’s simple enough. _Cough_ All English is simple enough. It just takes thorough thought. Keep ploughing through, though. > [@](#): > > I’m freaking out here, man, help me out ( **or get me in deeper** )! My bold. I trust I did. j Apologies: To speakers of American English: I had to use the English english “ploughing” (plowing) - sorry, it’s too convoluted to work “bough” (of a tree) in. (PS: in English english “thorough” is yet another pronunciation of _ough_ - a kind of “uh” sound.) To (most of) those whose first language is not english: just sorry, really. To everyone: I had to omit “hiccough” and “lough” for reasons of convolution. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/6 "2019-11-05T22:32:45Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > _Cough_ > > All English is simple enough. Keep ploughing through, though. You left out ‘tough’ and you misplaced ‘cough’. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/7 "2019-11-05T22:43:02Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > You left out ‘tough’ and you misplaced ‘cough’. 😛 Hi Qadgop - I don’t understand about cough - misplaced? You got me.😕 As for _tough_ - didn’t need it, I had _enough_ anyway. 🙂 (On the other hand, if _tough_ and _enough_ aren’t homophones in American english, that’s going to look pretty stupid). j ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/8 "2019-11-05T22:45:53Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Hi Qadgop - I don’t understand about cough - misplaced? You got me.😕 > > As for _tough_ - didn’t need it, I had _enough_ anyway. 🙂 > > (On the other hand, if _tough_ and _enough_ aren’t homophones in American english, that’s going to look pretty stupid). > > j They’re homophones, but you didn’t run 'em all together in sequence. I’m a simple man, with a simple mind, I need them all lined up like that. “The tough coughs as he ploughs through the dough” sort of thing. You’re too articulate! 😉 The ‘thorough’ and ‘thought’ threw me too. So Toodaloo, caribou. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/9 "2019-11-05T22:46:06Z")
Reminds me of the old example I saw; wish I could remember where. “ghoti” - pronounced “fish”. “gh” as in “enough”; “o” as in “women”; “ti” as in “nation”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/10 "2019-11-05T23:02:28Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > Reminds me of the old example I saw; wish I could remember where. > > “ghoti” - pronounced “fish”. > > “gh” as in “enough”; > “o” as in “women”; > “ti” as in “nation”. It’s often attributed to George Bernard Shaw, but [was originated by others.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti) ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/11 "2019-11-05T23:14:14Z")
Re the “ough” business – we’ve been here before: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=822255&highlight=hiccough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=822255&highlight=hiccough) In that one, a possible tally of eleven pronunciations was “floated”. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/12 "2019-11-06T00:33:15Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Hi Qadgop - I don’t understand about cough - misplaced? You got me.😕 > > As for _tough_ - didn’t need it, I had _enough_ anyway. 🙂 > > (On the other hand, if _tough_ and _enough_ aren’t homophones in American english, that’s going to look pretty stupid). > > j “After my mother had to slough an ace and lost the card game, she went down to the slough to look at the ducks.” (Although my mother would spell them sluff and slue or slew) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/13 "2019-11-06T00:49:18Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > Reminds me of the old example I saw; wish I could remember where. > > “ghoti” - pronounced “fish”. > > “gh” as in “enough”; > “o” as in “women”; > “ti” as in “nation”. This cute “example” is a clear sign that the speaker doesn’t know much about the language. “Gh” is only pronounced as “f” at the end of a word. At the beginning, it’s pronounced “g” (look at “ghoul” or “ghost.”) The o in woman is a unique case due to a transcription error; pronunciation is different in every other English word. “Ti” is only pronounced like “sh” if it’s followed by “on”. Thus “ghoti” would be pronounced like “goatee.” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/14 "2019-11-06T01:37:29Z")
There is a story, probably apocryphal, about Mark Twain hearing someone going on about spelling reform. The speaker said, “Do you know that the word sugar is the only word in the English language in which the sh sound is spelled su?” Twain interrupts him to say, “Are you sure?” Then there is a pair on antonyms that are spelled and pronounced exactly the same: cleave. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/15 "2019-11-06T09:43:03Z")
Returning briefly to _ough_ - there’s a fine Dave Gorman joke in which he recounts looking at a hoarding on the site of the new Loughborough University London Campus. For those that don’t know, Loughborough University the UK’s foremost student athlete establishment, and is pronounced _Luff-Burra_. As he is standing there, Gorman is asked by a passing, puzzled American tourist: _how do you say that_? to which he replies: _Low-Brow_. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There is a story, probably apocryphal, about Mark Twain hearing someone going on about spelling reform. The speaker said, “Do you know that the word sugar is the only word in the English language in which the sh sound is spelled su?” Twain interrupts him to say, “Are you sure?” > > Then there is a pair on antonyms that are spelled and pronounced exactly the same: cleave. Nitpick-ish: strictly autoantonyms. Looking at [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym#Examples_of_English-language_auto-antonyms), same pronunciation appears to be the norm. My fave (not on the list) is _Horrorshow_, now used to mean something awful, but [invented by Anthony Burgess](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:A_Clockwork_Orange#H) to mean good. j ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/16 "2019-11-06T11:04:19Z")
> [@Treppenwitz](#): > > Returning briefly to _ough_ - there’s a fine Dave Gorman joke in which he recounts looking at a hoarding on the site of the new Loughborough University London Campus. For those that don’t know, Loughborough University the UK’s foremost student athlete establishment, and is pronounced _Luff-Burra_. As he is standing there, Gorman is asked by a passing, puzzled American tourist: _how do you say that_? to which he replies: _Low-Brow_. Or there was the Australian visitor who – along the lines of what numerous place-names in his homeland are like – pronounced it “Loogabarrooga”. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/17 "2019-11-06T11:33:05Z")
“Warranty” and “guarantee” reveal how English has deep Germanic roots, and also shallower (Norman) French influence. They both derive from the same Germanic (and Proto-Indo-European root), but the latter is filtered through medieval French. There are other such doublets. (Usually the Germanic root came into French via Frankish, the Germanic language spoken in much of medieval France). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/18 "2019-11-06T11:59:46Z")
(Two other such doublets are “yard” and “garden,” and — would you believe? — “whore” and “cheer”). ”Cheer” is a little different, in that it entered French via that language’s Latin roots, not Frankish Germanic — but they do share the same Indo European root, the ones from which we get “care,” “charity,” and “mon cherie”. ---
**Author:** ![Taesahnim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/taesahnim/32/84_2.png) [@Taesahnim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taesahnim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/19 "2019-11-06T12:10:23Z")
Why do we park on driveways, but drive on parkways? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002/20 "2019-11-06T13:10:08Z")
> [@Taesahnim](#): > > Why do we park on driveways, but drive on parkways? That was answered long ago: [Why do we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway? - The Straight Dope](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/410/why-do-we-drive-on-the-parkway-and-park-on-the-driveway/) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argh-the-english-language-part-lxvii/843002.md?page=2)