Argument for creationism?

A mudworm that can tell if it is exposed to light has a selective advantage over a mudworm which cannot tell, if there are predators who are felling or smelling around for worms sticking out of the mud.

A decendent of these mudworms which “learned” to be hunters themselves on the surface of the mud with more light-sensitive skin on its top side will be a little better at staying on the top of the mud than a mudworm decendent with equal sensitivity all over its skin.

A descendent of these mud-surface worms which has “learned” to swim to the next mudpatch with more light-sensitive skin at its front end will survive a little better than a swimming worm which does not differentiate between forward and back.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Astrid, Darwin dealt with this same question 154 years ago. In fact, it’s a common quote-mine by creationists to point to this passage of his:

Sounds bad, right? Darwin himself realized that there was no way something like the eye could have evolved!

But hang on - those creationists are being dishonest again. That previous passage was just a rhetorical setup for him to explain how something like the eye could evolve. And he did a very good job of showing how it could be done, it still reads very well even today.

I guess no one should be surprised that the creationists were lying.

Imagine you see a man on top of a tall cliff. This is the middle ages so he has no climbing gear, nor helicopter. You yell up to him: “Hey, how the hell did you get way up there? It must have been terribly difficult!”

He says: “I didn’t climb up the cliff side. Behind me is a long, gentle sloping hill. I just hiked up here with my backpack and some trail mix. It took me several hours, but it wasn’t too strenuous, and here I am.”

Evolution-acceptors say “Yeah, makes sense to me. There really isn’t any other way he could have gotten up there.”

Creationists say: “Bullshit. That’s unbelievable! He just “lazily hiked” up a steep cliff!? No, some thousand-foot tall giant came by and picked him up and put him there. That’s the only possible way.”

There’s no giants anywhere to be found, but that doesn’t matter to the creationist, because he can’t imagine any other possibility.

It’s their defining characteristic.

To the OP, it is a minor issue but you are confusing intelligent design with creationism. What you are describing is called intelligent design.
There is no single ‘eye’ across evolution, they have evolved independently 20-100 times across earth. Some animals have better eyes than humans (like owls) and some worse. Bees can see ultraviolet light, something humans cannot. The point is eyes at various steps of ability offer advantages and benefits that leads to evolution.

Also in biochemistry class in college we learned how animals can sometimes keep a functional protein while making a copy for evolutionary purposes. I don’t know what this is called or how common it is, but it could allow development of new traits while still keeping the old trait active. Of a new trait eventually is effective the old trait will slowly disappear. I have no is how it relates to eye evolution though.
Another thing is that intelligent design occurs on a far faster timeline than evolution by natural selection. Intelligent design exists and is organized by humans. We have intentionally bred pets, food crops and farm animals out of less edible, less friendly, more wild versions. This occurs fairly fast (foxes can be evolved into dogs in under 40 years and 40 generations). If intelligent design existed we would evolve much faster. As far as the brain, it has tripled in size in the last two million years. But Steven pinker once said something like if we were intelligently designed that would be enough time to grow the brain them shrink it back and do that multiple times. Considering that 2 million years is probably about 120,000 generations (assuming a reproduction age of 15,which is likely high) that is possible. And humans have a high reproduction age.

Point is, eyes have millions of generations to evolve and they have evolved up to 100 separate times.

I would read the book the blind watchmaker by Richard Dawkins sometime.

Scientist: But look at the swelling and calluses on his feet. That’s evidence that he has in fact been walking for a while.

Creationist: How do you know that? Maybe he was just born that way. Maybe he got them doing something else! I still think a giant picked him up and put him up there.

Scientist: We have examined his musculature and found many microscopic tears that correspond to prolonged use of his leg muscles.

Creationist: So what that’s not proof. Maybe his muscles are tired from doing something else.

Scientist: We found many of his footprints along the gradual slope matching up to the point where he now stands.

Creationist: How do you know those are his footprints? Maybe they belong to someone else. I still think a giant put him up there.

etc, etc, etc…

This is the biggest knock against an intelligent designer.

Even a comparison between say a mammalian eye and a cephalod eye is instructive. The octopus optic nerve is behind the retina (no blind spot) while the human optic nerve connects to the middle of the retina creating a blind spot. They are similar structures that evolved independently, even if the end result is almost identical.

There’s no intelligent point in designing two otherwise quite similar eyes with a single such glaring difference.

I guess you could claim this as a sign of an unintelligent designer, but few proponents of creationism or ID are going to jump on board the “mentally-deficient creator” bandwagon.

I feel like the OP is more asking an honest question about how evolution works here, not that he’s necessarily just trying to rehash debunked anti-evolution arguments. The problem, as I see it, is that there’s a lot of parts about evolution that don’t really work in an intuitive way, particularly for people that aren’t scientists. I can absolutely see why the evolution of the eye would seem like a tall order, because it used to seem just that way to me.

First, I think the biggest problem is that evolution isn’t straight up random. I think the intuitive idea of how evolution works is generally more along the lines of like a guess and check. It still works using random processes, but the actual way it works out is remarkably more efficient. The best intuitive example I can give would be like playing a game of guessing the secret number between, say, 1 and 1000. People think it’s just like “is it 7? No. Is it 513? No…” Obviously, that’s remarkably inefficient. Rather, it’s a lot more like “Is it higher or lower than 7? Higher. Is it higher or lower than 513? Lower…” It’s not perfectly efficient, bisecting it would be the best, but a random division isn’t bad. It’s not a perfect analogy, but hopefully at least the idea that it’s not just equivalent to guess and check is there.

Second, I think our intuitive understand of the timescales involved just don’t serve us well. We don’t do well in understanding numbers like millions or billions, but they are much huger numbers than we can meaningfully conceptualize. Further, understanding that while the human reproductive cycle is generally around 20 years or so, the overwhelming majority of life has much shorter reproductive cycles, a few years for many other mammals, and as long as hours or minutes for microbes. So, not only is evolution more efficient per generation than we think, but there’s a whole lot more generations to work with than we intuitively would believe there is.

Thid, as others pointed out, the idea of irreducible complexity, that something realy complex like the eye or ear, is ultimately just an argument from ignorance, the idea that because we can’t think of some intermediate step that may provide an advantage, that it doesn’t exist. With the eye, for instance, others laid out a few examples of useful intermediate steps. Initial light sensitivity is useful, it would help life in the sea locate the surface, which could help with finding and eating photosynthetic microbes, etc.

But beyond that, there’s other factors at work besides just an advantage in reproduction. Sometimes random mutations provide no meaningful survival advantage or possibly even minor disadvantages appear and stick around for other reasons; the only part that really matters is how successfully they reproduce. For instance, particularly with sexual reproduction, there’s a number of species that have characteristics they use to attract mates, like bright and colorful plumage. It may actually make it more difficult for them to hide from predators, but ultimately all that matters is their ability to reach reproductive maturity and pass on their genes.

Or, similarly, sometimes stuff seems like a bad design, like external gonads on human males and we might think that evolution would “fix” such an obvious mistake. But evolution is unlikely to converge on an ideal design, just generally the best that it’s stumbled upon.

Finally, I think the last issue the OP is struggling with is the fallacy of the excluded middle. The idea that it’s either creationism or evolution, and so if some aspect of one is shown to be incorrect, then the other must be true. For fundamentalism, that holds to inerrancy, this seems like a logical way to approach it, because accepting 100% correctness is a tenant of that belief, but that isn’t the case with science. Not only is it possible, but it’s incredibly likely that some aspects of our current understanding of evolution are incorrect, but like evolution itself, we don’t throw out the whole idea, we make small adjustments and try it again. And, even if by some chance we find that a major part of it is completely wrong and the entire theory collapses, the doesn’t make an argument for creationism, as it’s possible there’s some other explanation that could explain all of the current observations plus whatever that new one may be.

And on a more personal level, as a theist myself, raised believing in Biblical inerrancy, I actually found that taking this approach helped strengthen my faith a lot. The idea that an omnimax God, to whom time has no meaning, would create us “perfectly” in a single instant at the begining of time is self-contradictory, but this feels like it fits a lot better with those premises. That’s a discussion for another thread, but I felt it was worth putting out there so the OP doesn’t get the impression that evolution and religion need to be at odds.

I don’t see a real difference between ID and creationism. I guess you could say that creationism traditionally meant that it happened instantaneously, while ID accepts a long time frame. But so what? That’s an insignificant distinction IMHO.

They’re both, at bottom, the argument from ignorance fallacy.

The evidence lends itself to several possible conclusions:

  1. Evolution as understood by the vast majority of biologists
  2. A cosmic prankster who wants us to believe in evolution
  3. An unintelligent designer, practically a moron of epic proportions, who also is very cruel or sociopathic

Take your pick, but the evidence we have does not lend itself to Christian ideas of creationism, nor do they allow for an even moderately intelligent designer.

Intelligent Design is a subset of Creationism. Neither are science or scientific theories.

It sounds like you are simply missing out on the scale of time involved in evolution. We are talking about hundreds of millions of years. It is a small step by step progress.
Most likely sight got its start with tiny organisms that developed a minor light sensitivity which led them to warmer water and to more nutrients. Then after who knows how long the light sensitivity got better and eventually took a step towards sensing movement or something else like that. Etc. for lets say 200 million years or so of slow incremental improvements and innumerable dead ends.

“Critter” is just a dialectical way of saying “creature”.

The best counter argument against evolution I’ve heard was from a southern baptist preacher once (I had a girl friend who was a SB and was invited to go on a trip to an amusement park…part of the ‘price’ was to sit through said SB preacher giving a sermon, and of course one of the subjects was the evils of evolution). Basically what he said was…why don’t we have tails anymore? He went on to cogently (:p) explain all the uses we’d have for tails if we were evolved from monkeys. You could use your tail to open a door when your hands were full, for instance. You could use your tail to hold your keys. He didn’t say so, but like in Space Balls you could use your tail to ‘accidentally’ lift the skirt of the babe next to you on the bus! Think how useful they would be.

Not sure why this disproved evolution, but it was by far the best and most amusing counter argument I’ve ever heard. I laughed so loud that folks were getting angry at me and telling me to give the man some respect. Sadly, I lost that girlfriend, but on a positive note I found out that southern baptist women do go all the way, even with nasty Mexicans like me, which was a bonus. :stuck_out_tongue:

Something else that evolves is language. In Norwegian there’s a little used word “kreatur” that can mean creature, but is more often limited to the meaning “livestock” and written and pronounced “krøtter” (which is similar to the “devolution” to ‘critter’).

Some etymologies seem incredible if you only look at the (known) end points, but work out when you know all the steps in between. Science looks at biological features and ask “How could this have come to be?” And ever since Darwin we’ve been finding better and better answers. Creationism used to be about pointing out the gaps and say “you can’t explain that jump! Goddidit!” Now it’s about either ignorantly/dishonestly ignoring the latest evidence and pointing at old questions, or the truly asinine “you can’t explain how things got from the first state to your proposed middle state to the latter state, more gaps, more room for Goddidit!”

As was demonstrated at the Dover trial in 2005, they are exactly the same thing, and still not science. Creationism was outlawed by the Supreme Court in Edwards (1987), so the proponents (“Cdesign proponentsists”) replaced all references to creationism in their literature with the phrase Intelligent Design.

Didn’t work for long. The Dover court caught on.

A humorous take on the topic

See, it was all part of God’s grand design – you got a piece of tail after all!

It is not belief, it is trust. We clearly can’t do all the experiments ourselves, so we trust the work of others. But this is not blind trust. Scientific papers are structured to not just present results but also to present reasons for others to accept the results. This includes a description of the setup the experiment and an analysis of the statistical significance of the results. As a review I jump all over papers which are missing the latter, and I’m not alone.

Papers which do a bad job of building this kind of trust get rejected, but even when a paper is published, other researchers are free to attack its methods and conclusions. Sometimes reviewers are lazy.

And then important results get reproduced - or not, as in cold fusion. In fact a good scientist only believes in his or her results so far. I’d believe in mine a lot more if someone else reproduces them.

As I have already pointed out, (primitive) eyes evolved before brains (both of which evolved long before there were vertebrates), and many creatures still around today have eyes but no brains. It would not be too misleading (although a bit of an oversimplification) to say that brains evolved in order to make better use of pre-existing* eyes. Both eyes and brains evolved as specialized parts of simple nervous systems, whose original function was (almost certainly) to co-ordinate behaviors such as swimming.

It is true that the retina of the vertebrate eye can reasonably be considered to be part of the brain. I think it is pushing things a bit to say that about the eye as a whole, though.

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*Hmm, the Firefox spellchecker does not think pre-existing is a word, and thinks I might really mean pee-existing. :eek:

Preexisting (no hyphen) is a word, according to the Chrome spellcheck. Personally, I like the hyphenated version to avoid the awkward double e. I much prefer my Double E from college.