# Arguments \*\*against\*\* gay marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663 "2013-04-02T20:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/221 "2013-04-19T12:50:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Heterosexual couples engage in anal sex. It’s still unhealthy. > [@](#): > > This response of yours is a red herring as your original comment was based on a claim that homosexual sex was driven only by sensual desires as if heterosexual sex was not or that homosexual sex did not include desires for intimacy. I did mention that I mentioned ‘care’. Read it again. > [@](#): > > Trying to simply use high-falutin’ words to say “eewww!” is really not making your argument, particularly when you appear to have your facts wrong. So _unhealthy_ is now a high-falutin’ word, and the claim that gay men in same-sex relationships are likely to engage in regular anal sex is _not_ a credible one? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/222 "2013-04-19T13:21:24Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > It’s still unhealthy. We don’t forbid heterosexual marriages because the participants might have anal sex. Sex is irrelevant to the question of whether gay marriage should be legal. > [@](#): > > So _unhealthy_ is now a high-falutin’ word, and the claim that gay men in same-sex relationships are likely to engage in regular anal sex is _not_ a credible one? It’s totally and completely not a relevant one to the question of whether gay marriage should be legal. ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/223 "2013-04-19T13:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s a widespread belief and I expect it persists because invasions by Visigoths and Vandals, deforestation and plague and the economic/military depletion created by endless civil wars are less sexy by comparison. > > Feel free to cite some historians who agree that “decadence” was as significant as any of the above. At the very least, I’m not aware the Romans had _depopulated_ themselves to death. I said it was _a_ factor, not _the_ factor. Are you really demanding learned citations supporting the idea that, when you take people out of procreational sexual activity, the birthrate will decline? > [@](#): > > Well, you seem to have overlooked the major element of my objection - namely I’m opposed to unequal treatment unless there is a very good reason for it (and the reasons you have given regarding society turning away from heterosexual reproduction are particularly specious and unsupported). Granted, the reason of mine quoted here is a conjecture, based on the notion that sexuality is neither chosen nor inborn. I’m willing to admit that in the grand scheme of things, anyone could grow up to become gay, depending on the sum total of sensual stimuli they had opportunity of, and and how they responded to the experiences. Indeed, this notion is good for gays in that it seeks to normalize their sexuality as something that emerged naturally, and neither as a mere choice nor genetic anomaly. Anyone arguing in favor of gay marriage should accept that sexualities are substitutable. However, I have also demonstrated that procreation is not transferable; only one man and one woman are capable of independently reproducing, and this is the basis for distinguishing heterosexual couplings from \*all other \*couplings. > [@](#): > > It’s actually quite easy to recognize distinctions among various gay couples - this couple is male, that couple is female. This couple is one white person and one black person, that couple is two Asian persons. > This couple includes one left-handed person, that couple has two right-handed persons… It’s a trivial exercise. Please give us a distinction that justifies one gay couple having access to the numerous and varied legal privileges of marriage while another gay couple does not. These are all sterile relationships by their very nature, and I can offer no such distinction. None of them should be eligible for marriage. > [@](#): > > I can think of a few off the top of my head: > > 1. One of the couple (or both of them) is _already_ legally married. Solution: dissolve all existing marital ties before creating a new one. > 2. One of the couple (or both of them) has not reached the age of majority. Solution: wait, or obtain parental consent if available. > 3. The couple has a blood relationship closer than first cousin. Solution: none, really. I recognize that this is not a wholly rational ban, but as long as it equally applies to everyone, I can’t summon enough of an objection to fight over it. > 4. One of the couple (or both of them) has been ruled legally incompetent to enter a marriage or other legal arrangements. Solution: medical treatment, petitioning the courts for a reversal. > 5. One of the couple is not a citizen. This has always been a tricky area, where marriage law overlaps with immigration law. I would have to research the matter to comfortably comment further. Again, they’re all sterile, and none of them should enjoy _the numerous and varied legal privileges of marriage._ ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/224 "2013-04-19T14:08:39Z")
steabo, you are literally cracking me up. I’m laughing out loud here. Just having come out of a committed, same-sex relationship, let me privy you to a little bit of inside information: a lot of guys, perhaps the vast majority, do not “regularly” engage in penetrative anal sex. I would estimate offhand that maybe 5% of our sex life involved anal sex. I wonder how this compares to many heterosexual couples? With all this talk of “tops and bottoms” hahaha, are you sure you aren’t gay if you’re talking about tops and bottoms all the time? Now, I’m sorry for entertaining this thread derailing and will allow you to get back to your regularly scheduled program. (Sympathy for the gays, I love it. Like we are to be pitied. steabo, you are killing me) ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/225 "2013-04-19T14:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > It seems to me that non-same-sex couples’ relationships are… _Non-same-sex couples_, really? > [@](#): > > “I get the fact that gay couples are in love, but they don’t actually love each other.” This is not what I wrote. > [@](#): > > What distinguishes my relationship with my girlfriend from a really great friendship, except the sex? You could have a baby together by having sex (I’m assuming you’re a dude). And if you weren’t married, you could more easily become a deadbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/226 "2013-04-19T14:31:57Z")
Marriage isn’t required for procreation and vice versa. Fertility isn’t required or involved either. That’s about as relevant as the mechanics of sex. ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/227 "2013-04-19T14:55:32Z")
> [@](#): > > steabo, you are literally cracking me up. I’m laughing out loud here. Glad to be of service. > [@](#): > > Just having come out of a committed, same-sex relationship, let me privy you to a little bit of inside information: a lot of guys, perhaps the vast majority, do not “regularly” engage in penetrative anal sex. I would estimate offhand that maybe 5% of our sex life involved anal sex. I wonder how this compares to many heterosexual couples? With all this talk of “tops and bottoms” hahaha, are you sure you aren’t gay if you’re talking about tops and bottoms all the time? So, gays aren’t even fucking each other most of the time?! What’s the point of that?! _All this talk of tops and bottoms_ refers not to what has been posted here, but referenced in pop culture. Maybe I’m just watching to many Seth McFarlane series… Seriously, though, how much could gay sex ever possibly result in procreation? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/228 "2013-04-19T15:15:29Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > Again, they’re all sterile, and none of them should enjoy _the numerous and varied legal privileges of marriage._ So should my “sterile” marriage, in which my wife and I for various reasons we decided not to have children be allowed? [QUOTE=steabo] So, gays aren’t even fucking each other most of the time?! What’s the point of that?! [/QUOTE] So you haven’t heard of oral sex? [QUOTE=steabo] Seriously, though, how much could gay sex ever possibly result in procreation? [/QUOTE] Again my wife and I have a great deal of sex that could not result in procreation. Should we still be allowed be married? ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/229 "2013-04-19T15:30:46Z")
[quote=“Buck\_Godot, post:228, topic:654663”] > [@](#): > > So should my “sterile” marriage, in which my wife and I for various reasons we decided not to have children be allowed? Yes. > [@](#): > > Again my wife and I have a great deal of sex that could not result in procreation. Should we still be allowed be married? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/230 "2013-04-19T16:15:48Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > _All this talk of tops and bottoms_ refers not to what has been posted here, but referenced in pop culture. Then I still don’t know what you mean by “all this talk.” I watch plenty of TV and people do talk about sex sometimes, but this isn’t something I’m exposed to an inordinate amount of the time. I’m not sure why that matters either, but you seem determined to make it part of this discussion and suggest that you’re somehow being inundated with information about sex between guys against your will. It’s preposterous to say marriage should be open only to people for whom accidental pregnancy might theoretically be possible. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/231 "2013-04-19T16:20:39Z")
Meh. I don’t know of many \*straight \*couples IRL that I’d like to see doin’ it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/232 "2013-04-19T16:27:04Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > So, gays aren’t even fucking each other most of the time?! What’s the point of that?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I don’t even know how to respond to this. What’s the point of what, exactly? A committed, loving relationship that doesn’t involve regular anal sex? You’ve basically outed yourself. You just admitted that there’s no point to guys being together if they aren’t constantly getting some of that sweet, sweet anal sex. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/233 "2013-04-19T16:47:30Z")
From a posting of mine in another thread. In future steabo, could you simply refer to your arguments by number - this will save time: For example, when you want to use your “gays are fucking in the anus” argument, you could just post NUMBER 2! NUMBER 2! ICK! (and a bit of #4! Cause “all this talk” is making me hot!) Reasons to oppose SSM: 1. Jesus would have been against it, if he had ever said anything about it, and anyone had ever wrote it down. Because I know what Jesus thought. 2. Ick. I don’t like to hear about this. So stop talking about it. 3. The word “marriage” must, unlike all other words, remain exactly as I personally define it, and this definition must be frozen in time forever. Change makes me personally uncomfortable, therefore society must never be allowed to change. 4. If gays marry, then the population will plummet, because then every man will have the uncontrollable impulse to marry another man and have that sweet, sweet cock forever. (usually said by severely closeted men, who think that ALL men crave cock, and the only thing stopping them is strict rules) 5. If gays marry, then this will destroy the purity, the sanctity, and the holiness that is at the fundamental core of REAL marriages, such as the one between Dennis Rodman and Carmen Electra (9 days of marriage, which totally respected the institution) or that of Britney Spears and Jason Alexander (only 55 hours, but is much better than a union of two men who have loved and supported each other for 25 years) ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/234 "2013-04-19T16:59:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Then I still don’t know what you mean by “all this talk.” I watch plenty of TV and people do talk about sex sometimes, but this isn’t something I’m exposed to an inordinate amount of the time. I’m not sure why that matters either, but you seem determined to make it part of this discussion and suggest that you’re somehow being inundated with information about sex between guys against your will. Well, you seem pretty determined to show that I’m determined to bring it in, but the record shows that I’m not. > [@](#): > > It’s preposterous to say marriage should be open only to people for whom accidental pregnancy might theoretically be possible. Is that all straight couples are, _people for whom accidental pregnancy might theoretically be possible_? ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/235 "2013-04-19T17:05:38Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. > > I don’t even know how to respond to this. What’s the point of what, exactly? A committed, loving relationship that doesn’t involve regular anal sex? > > You’ve basically outed yourself. You just admitted that there’s no point to guys being together if they aren’t constantly getting some of that sweet, sweet anal sex. It’s called _ironic outrage_. ---
**Author:** ![steabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@steabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steabo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/236 "2013-04-19T17:13:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > From a posting of mine in another thread. In future steabo, could you simply refer to your arguments by number - this will save time: > > For example, when you want to use your “gays are fucking in the anus” argument, you could just post NUMBER 2! NUMBER 2! ICK! (and a bit of #4! Cause “all this talk” is making me hot!) > > Reasons to oppose SSM: > > 1. Jesus would have been against it, if he had ever said anything about it, and anyone had ever wrote it down. Because I know what Jesus thought. > > 2. Ick. I don’t like to hear about this. So stop talking about it. > > 3. The word “marriage” must, unlike all other words, remain exactly as I personally define it, and this definition must be frozen in time forever. Change makes me personally uncomfortable, therefore society must never be allowed to change. > > 4. If gays marry, then the population will plummet, because then every man will have the uncontrollable impulse to marry another man and have that sweet, sweet cock forever. (usually said by severely closeted men, who think that ALL men crave cock, and the only thing stopping them is strict rules) > > 5. If gays marry, then this will destroy the purity, the sanctity, and the holiness that is at the fundamental core of REAL marriages, such as the one between Dennis Rodman and Carmen Electra (9 days of marriage, which totally respected the institution) or that of Britney Spears and Jason Alexander (only 55 hours, but is much better than a union of two men who have loved and supported each other for 25 years) I not really concerned with what gays are doing (as unhealthy as it is), but I know what they’re absolutely not doing: producing any children. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/237 "2013-04-19T17:26:30Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > Well, you seem pretty determined to show that I’m determined to bring it in, but the record shows that I’m not. Nobody mentioned it before you. I’d just rather not let you get away with it as a one-off because it was so irrelevant and said so much about your motives. > [@](#): > > Is that all straight couples are, _people for whom accidental pregnancy might theoretically be possible_? I’m straight, so no, that’s not all they are. But that appears to be the basis for marriage in your opinion. If two people could theoretically have a kid together, they should be allowed to marry even if they don’t want children or are infertile. If they’re the same sex, they shouldn’t be allowed to marry because they can’t have children with each other. Did I miss something? It’s not like you’re the first person to make these claims. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/238 "2013-04-19T18:02:49Z")
[quote=“steabo, post:229, topic:654663”] > [@steabo](#): > > Yes. > > Yes. So what you’re saying is that the right to marry has nothing whatsoever to do with procreation, with what you do, or even the result of what you do . . . but of who you are. Some people have the right to marry, because of who they are; and other people don’t have that right, because of who they are. That’s astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/239 "2013-04-19T19:58:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Again? It’s not “an identical set of laws”. It’s ONE set of laws. One. No, it’s not. What you propose is two different sets of laws. > [@magellan01](#): > > Dual purposes, actually. > > 1. SS couples get the rights and privileges that OS couples have long enjoyed. > > 2. We reserve a special place for traditional marriage. > > We no doubt share concern for #1. #2 I think is also important, as it has been a foundational principle for western society. Additionally, it seems like we should have a word for society’s recognition of such an important institution. One that commemorates the natural coming together of man and woman and the begetting of children. I understand that for those who don’t value #2, my position is not for them. The problem isn’t that we don’t “value” #2, the problem is that #2 is actually pretty insulting. On the continuum of insults lobbed by the anti-marriage movement, with 10 being “God Hates Fags,” you’re coming in about a .01 with your proposal, so it’s not a huge thing, but there’s really no getting around the fact that saying that marriage is a cornerstone of our society, and then telling a class of people that they’re not good enough to make up part of that cornerstone - indeed, that letting them in will actually _weaken_ it, is inherently insulting. Is this more important than all those other rights? No, of course not. But it’s not _un_important. In the most practical terms, your “two laws” proposal represents a crack in our legal protections that future homophobes could exploit to peel back our rights. Why give them that edge? Beyond the practical, of course, is the simply fact that I have a pretty strong opposition to the idea of my government passing laws calling me a second class citizen. > [@](#): > > I’d venture to guess that if you took a national poll asking everyone, what would you prefer in the U.S.: > > A) Committed gay couples should be allowed to get married, just like straight people, and enjoy all the same benefits and privileges > > B) Committed gay couples should never be allowed to get married, and should not be able enjoy the same benefits and privileges that married couples enjoy > > C) Committed gay couples should be allowed to enjoy the privileges and benefits enjoyed by their heterosexual counterparts, but “marriage” should be reserved for one man/one woman > > …which do you think would be the most popular answer? My guess is C. [Turns out, it’s A.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57576249/poll-53-of-americans-support-same-sex-marriage/) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/240 "2013-04-19T20:12:29Z")
> [@steabo](#): > > Yes So if my “sterile” marriage is OK why do you care if gay marriages are “sterile”. By the way are you married? and if so did you marry just for the sex and children? If so I feel sorry for you because you are missing the whole point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663.md?page=13)