# Arguments \*\*against\*\* gay marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663 "2013-04-02T20:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/41 "2013-04-14T21:36:14Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > This would be an argument against homosexual marriage: > > Quote > [Gay Marriage: Kids Need Married Moms and Dads](http://blog.heritage.org/2013/03/15/social-science-confirms-kids-need-married-moms-and-dads/) > > “A recent study, using a large random population-based sample, shows that children raised by married moms and dads did far better in education and employment than peers in other parenting arrangements—including same-sex relationships—and were less likely to suffer from depression and drug use. They were less likely to be sexually abused, receive welfare, have an affair, or cohabitate”. It’s a little bit difficult to trace it down, but they seem to be referring to the [Regnerus _New Family Structures Study_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witherspoon_Institute#Controversies).When it comes to same-sex marriage, that study is a load of bull. The study’s categories “lesbian mother” and “gay father” include any case where the parent had a romantic relationship with some one of the same sex. It does not distinguish children brought up by same-sex couples from, for example, children who had a closeted parent whose opposite-sex marriage broke up. Less than 25% of the children in the study with a so-called “lesbian mother” lived with that mother and a female partner for three years or more, and less than 2% of the children with a so-called “gay father” lived with the father and a male partner for more than three years. [Here’s an article explaining the problems better than I can.](http://chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/controversial-gay-parenting-study-is-severely-flawed-journals-audit-finds/30255) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/42 "2013-04-14T23:06:03Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > This would be an argument against homosexual marriage: > > Quote > [Gay Marriage: Kids Need Married Moms and Dads](http://blog.heritage.org/2013/03/15/social-science-confirms-kids-need-married-moms-and-dads/) > > “A recent study, using a large random population-based sample, shows that children raised by married moms and dads did far better in education and employment than peers in other parenting arrangements—including same-sex relationships—and were less likely to suffer from depression and drug use. They were less likely to be sexually abused, receive welfare, have an affair, or cohabitate”. Did you actually read the _amicus_ brief? [http://www.adfmedia.org/files/HollingsworthAmicusSocialScienceProfessors.pdf](http://www.adfmedia.org/files/HollingsworthAmicusSocialScienceProfessors.pdf) It first complains that studies involving same sex parents are too small to be worthwhile in the discussion. It then presents a study with not many more people involved that relies on memories of grown children for how well they did growing up, arguing that the families were less stable than the families of married heterosexual couples used as a control. It then points to studies of same sex divorces rates in other countries as evidence that the same sex couple families will necessarily be less stable. Of course, this ignores the fact that no adult child in the study had an opportunity to be raised by a married same sex couple, (since no legal entity in the U.S. has had legal same sex marriage long enough to have produced adult children). It also leaves out any reference to how many of the reported divorces were of couples who had children. As a pointer to an area that may need more research, it is an interesting study. As “argument against homosexual marriage,” it fails. ---
**Author:** ![Cheryl44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Cheryl44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheryl44)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/43 "2013-04-14T23:10:22Z")
There are no reasonable arguments against gay marriage. Tell her to pick another topic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/44 "2013-04-15T00:04:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They can adopt children without being married. Perhaps you might conclude that they should not be allowed to adopt children, but not all married people can. I would argue, though, that individuals should not be punished because they belong to a group that may or may not produce different results than other groups. Unless there is evidence that all gay couples make crappy parents, each gay couple should be judged on their own. Are you sure? I thought this is one of the arguments used by gay marriage proponents - couples that aren’t legally married are generally not allowed to jointly adopt children. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/45 "2013-04-15T00:07:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you sure? I thought this is one of the arguments used by gay marriage proponents - couples that aren’t legally married are generally not allowed to jointly adopt children. [It varies by state](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_adoption_in_the_United_States) but there are plenty of states that don’t allow SSM but do allow gas to adopt. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/46 "2013-04-15T00:15:53Z")
But only kerosene or diesel fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/47 "2013-04-15T07:36:01Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > This would be an argument against homosexual marriage: > > Quote > [Gay Marriage: Kids Need Married Moms and Dads](http://blog.heritage.org/2013/03/15/social-science-confirms-kids-need-married-moms-and-dads/) > > “A recent study, using a large random population-based sample, shows that children raised by married moms and dads did far better in education and employment than peers in other parenting arrangements—including same-sex relationships—and were less likely to suffer from depression and drug use. They were less likely to be sexually abused, receive welfare, have an affair, or cohabitate”. That sounds like an argument for gay marriage. If only those homosexual relationships had the stability that marriage seems to have provided the heterosexual couples, the children would have been better off. And what’s wrong with cohabitating? If you don’t give them the benefit of marrying, what else is there to do? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/48 "2013-04-15T07:40:26Z")
One of the more compelling arguments I’ve heard for gay marriage, from a conservative standpoint, was made by Andrew Sullivan a long time ago: Marriage introduces more relationship stability. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/49 "2013-04-15T09:27:24Z")
Believe it or not, liberals like relationship stability, too. True story. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/50 "2013-04-15T09:39:21Z")
And believe it or not, conservatives like equality. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/51 "2013-04-15T10:05:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And believe it or not, conservatives like equality. Well, that’s a relief. Looks like we’ve solved the issue here. We like relationship stability, you like equality. Whaddya say we start passing out marriage licenses like lollipops and pop that champagne cork?! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/52 "2013-04-15T10:16:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And believe it or not, conservatives like equality. Not ever. Make speeches about, perhaps; but equality is a concept that goes against everything that conservatives have ever fought for throughout human history. Social stratification, social divisions and authoritarianism are what conservatives have always stood for, not equality. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/53 "2013-04-15T10:45:00Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Well, that’s a relief. Looks like we’ve solved the issue here. We like relationship stability, you like equality. Whaddya say we start passing out marriage licenses like lollipops and pop that champagne cork?! 😃 Soon. There’s still some debating to be done, and laws to be passed. And Der Trihs, conservatives favor equality under the law. Nothing more, nothing less. The kind of equality liberals favor by necessity requires the law to treat people differently. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/54 "2013-04-15T10:55:50Z")
Tell that to the royalists! ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/55 "2013-04-15T11:00:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Soon. There’s still some debating to be done, and laws to be passed. > > And Der Trihs, conservatives favor equality under the law. Nothing more, nothing less. The kind of equality liberals favor by necessity requires the law to treat people differently. Um, no. What’s to debate? Repeal DOMA and federally protect same-sex couples from discriminatory marriage laws. Easy peasy, no more sleazy debates about bestiality. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/56 "2013-04-15T11:01:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And Der Trihs, conservatives favor equality under the law. Nothing more, nothing less. Which is another way of saying that they regard the main domestic purpose of the govenrment as crushing any of the people they hate who get uppity. Being the rich and powerful and their allies, they don’t need the government in order to live in a state of privilege and wealth. they are already there. They just want the government to smash any of the downtrodden who want more, or who complain about being abused and exploited. > [@adaher](#): > > The kind of equality liberals favor by necessity requires the law to treat people differently. “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” That’s conservative “equality”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/57 "2013-04-15T11:06:26Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Um, no. > > What’s to debate? Repeal DOMA and federally protect same-sex couples from discriminatory marriage laws. Easy peasy, no more sleazy debates about bestiality. The federal government can’t mandate same sex marriage in all 50 states, at least not Congress. the Supreme Court could do it, but probably won’t. As for the debate, we’re having a very useful national conversation on what marriage is. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/58 "2013-04-15T11:10:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which is another way of saying that they regard the main domestic purpose of the govenrment as crushing any of the people they hate who get uppity. Being the rich and powerful and their allies, they don’t need the government in order to live in a state of privilege and wealth. they are already there. They just want the government to smash any of the downtrodden who want more, or who complain about being abused and exploited. > > “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” > > That’s conservative “equality”. The uberwealthy do not need government, true. If they didn’t have a government they could just buy protection from local toughs. However, the merely wealthy exist because of a free society that allows people to achieve. Third World countries don’t have large groups of people making $100,000 or more a year, they have gazillionaires, poor people, and a small middle class that works for and depends on state employment. Which is beside the point, since equality under the law is the preeminent principle of any free society. A nation that favors the poor over the rich is not actually more moral than a nation that favors the rich over the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/59 "2013-04-15T11:31:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The federal government can’t mandate same sex marriage in all 50 states, at least not Congress. the Supreme Court could do it, but probably won’t. > > As for the debate, we’re having a very useful national conversation on what marriage is. Not sure how you got “government mandate” out of repeal DOMA and federally protect same-sex couples from discrimination. That’s no mandate. That’s creating a class that cannot be discriminated against. The states regulate marriage not the Feds and I never claimed otherwise. The writing is on the wall. If the Fed gets out of the way and do what the Fed does (or should be doing) best, which is defending the Constitution, then same-sex marriage laws will find their way into every backwoods hamlet in every state in the Union. Just as multiracial marriages have. Just as arranged marriages went the dodo, so shall same sex marriage bans. I’m not even sure SCOTUS has to be involved. Maybe it will, but not before those states that haven’t adapted to changing times are made into the red-headed stepchildren that the rest of the country is ashamed to claim. ETA: And as for this “useful conversation” about marriage. I don’t see it. All it seems to be good for is a whole lot of disparaging of good people who wish to have their stable relationships earn the privileges and responsibilities that any other loving couple (and some not-so-loving couples) are entitled to. And bestiality. Yeah, useful. Riiiiight. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663/60 "2013-04-15T11:35:36Z")
Eh, I don’t know if a lot of Bible Belt states will be allowing gay marriage, federal protection is the best you can hope for in our lifetimes. Interracial marriage laws were invalidated by the Supreme Court. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-gay-marriage/654663.md?page=4)