# Arguments against getting the flu shot -- is this just more anti-vaccination nonsense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457 "2013-11-08T21:31:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/1 "2013-11-08T21:31:22Z")
I just got my flu shot yesterday – like I do every year – and today a Facebook friend of mine posts this link: [11 Reasons Why Flu Shots Are More Dangerous Than the Flu Itself](http://www.realfarmacy.com/11-reasons-why-flu-shots-are-more-dangerous-than-the-flu-itself/). I have never heard of this website before (and the fact that they spell pharmacy with an “f” makes me :dubious:), but I’ve always considered this friend of mine to be rather intelligent, so it’s unlike him to just post total crap. First time for everything though. In brief, the arguments range from the idea that something toxic gets included in the shot, leading to bad stuff to the assertion that the effectiveness of the flu shot hasn’t been proven. I’m not looking for a point-by-point refutation – just wondering if this is complete quackery or if there are any legitimate arguments here. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/2 "2013-11-08T21:34:49Z")
Horse Puckey, says Col. Sherman Potter. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/3 "2013-11-08T21:45:44Z")
Well you only need to go as far as the first sentence under #1 > [@](#): > > Have you ever noticed how vaccinated children get sick almost immediately following a vaccination? > Read more at [http://www.realfarmacy.com/11-reasons-why-flu-shots-are-more-dangerous-than-the-flu-itself/#Hda8yMxZtLrFpGPd.99](http://www.realfarmacy.com/11-reasons-why-flu-shots-are-more-dangerous-than-the-flu-itself/#Hda8yMxZtLrFpGPd.99) This is BS - while some side effects are higher in vaccine vs placebo - it is small except for things like pain in injection site (hurts worse than saline I guess). For example - with nasal vaccine: About 16% of children that got the vaccine had a fever vs 11% of the placebo. This is not “getting sick” and it means that only 1 out of 6 children have symptoms of being sick. So the idea that almost immediately 5 out of 100 people who get sick over the placebo - is not something a normally person would notice. The average person with 2 kids would never notice this even if they vaccinated their kid every year. [http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/vaccine\_safety.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/vaccine_safety.htm) Anything thing that is obvious enough for one person to notice - is extremely easy to see in a study - stuff like this is beyond silly. ETA: sorry that should have read “5 out of 100” - I originally wrote 3 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/4 "2013-11-08T22:43:17Z")
Here’s a red flag for critical analysis. If an article doesn’t cite its sources inline (either by providing direct clickable links, or footnote references like wikipedia has), be wary. You’ll often find alt-med articles that pull this kind of crap; they make a whole mess of claims in the article proper, and then at the bottom they have a short list of sources. Mercola and NaturalNews do this a lot. This makes it far harder to actually check their claims, and also means that to source any particular claim, you often have to dig through a list of sources to figure out which one is actually backing the claim. If you’re a science writer, there is no excuse to source your claims like this. Inline citations do not take that much time, and they make it far easier for your reader to check your claims. The ONLY reasons why someone would not provide inline citations are chronic laziness and a vested interest in not having their sources checked. As for the listed reasons, just a short fly-over: reason 2 is an anti-vaccination staple which is as depressingly common as it is bullshit. Only some flu shots contain thimerosal, and if you’re stupid, you can take the extra time and find one of the ones that doesn’t. But more importantly, the concentration of mercury therein is minuscule, and study after study has shown how safe thimerosal is in vaccines. Reason 3 cites Hugh Fudenberg, a total fucking wingnut, but does not actually cite any papers by him. Reason 4 is your typical FUD fake conflicts of interest. Reason 5 is not only unsourced bullshit but runs directly contrary to actual research on the subject. And then I read the comments, and decided I was done, because someone else already did this: > [@](#): > > 1)"Have you ever noticed how vaccinated children get sick almost immediately following a vaccination? This is because the flu virus is introduced into their bodies. So rather than immunize, the flu shot actually only sensitizes the body against the virus. And the fact that it causes individuals to get ill following a shot indicates immuno-suppression (i.e. lowering of the immunity). > > This is nonsense, and the person is either making this up or is copying from someone who did. The flu shot is killed virus. By introducing your immune system it is priming it to develop immunity. So when they say “rather than immunize, it only sensitizes” means they have no idea what the word immunity means. Whether you are infected naturally with live virus, or you have killed virus introduced to your immune system, it can’t really tell the difference. It’s going to recognize the proteins as foreign and make antibodies to them. The occasional fever, or aches is not actually infection with influenza but your own body’s biochemical reaction to the foreign protein. We release things like TNF-alpha, and interferons as a response to to foreign objects as part of our immune response. Those chemicals are the cause of fevers, chills, and aches. It’s not immune suppression, it’s your immune system starting it’s engines. > > Because the shot is killed virus, it’s not possible to get influenza from the shot. > > 2)“The pharmaceutical industry, medical experts and the mainstream media are candid in telling us that flu vaccines contain strains of the flu virus. What they are less likely to reveal though is the long list of other ingredients that come with the vaccine. It is now a known fact that flu vaccines contain mercury, a heavy metal known to be hazardous for human health. Mercury toxicity can cause depression, memory loss, cardiovascular diseases, respiratory problems, ADD, oral health problems, digestive imbalances and other serious health issues.” > > At this point the author is knowingly lying. In discussing mercury, she is not being honest because this point was refuted more than a decade ago. The flu vaccine (because it comes in a multidose vial) contains small amounts of a preservative known as Thimerosal, which has ethyl mercury. This is a preservative that has been around as a preservative since 1927. When Andrew Wakefield published his study of 12 children, claiming that the MMR vaccine was causing autism, many people blamed the Thimerosal. It was removed from vaccines altogether. THere have been several epidemiology studies which have shown that it is not at all toxic, nor the cause of autism. Toxic mercury is methy mercury, not ethyl mercury and behaves quite differently chemically. > > A similar analogy would be for me to say that because this is what happens when sodium reacts with water, you should stay away from table salt, because it contains sodium. > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Mfric7JUc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Mfric7JUc) > > There is more mercury in breast milk than there is in a single shot of flu vaccine. All of the side effects of mercury toxicity that the author listed are those caused by METHYL mercury. > > 3)“Evidence now suggests that flu vaccines can cause Alzheimer’s disease. Research conducted by Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, a leading immunogeneticist, shows that those who consistently get the flu vaccine increase their risk of Alzheimer’s disease by 10 fold. He believes this is due to the toxic combination of aluminum and mercury in the vaccine. Additionally, introducing the flu virus to an elderly person (who with age will naturally have a weaker immune system) will only increase the chances of that individual becoming susceptible to more serious illness.” > > Evidence has never suggested that. Unless by “evidence,” or “research” the author means that Dr. Oz and Jenny McCarthy used google to find nonsense on teh interwebs. > > A theory linking flu shots to a greatly increased risk of Alzheimer’s disease has been proposed by a U.S. doctor whose license was suspended by the South Carolina Board of Medical Examiners. Several mainstream studies link flu shots and other vaccinations to a reduced risk of Alzheimer’s disease and overall better health. > > A Nov. 27, 2001, Canadian Medical Journal report suggests older adults who were vaccinated against diphtheria or tetanus, polio, and influenza seemed to have a lower risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease than those not receiving these vaccinations. The full text of this report is posted on the journal’s Web site. > [http://www.cmaj.ca/content/165/11/1495.full?eaf](http://www.cmaj.ca/content/165/11/1495.full?eaf) > > A report in the Nov. 3, 2004, JAMA found that annual flu shots for older adults were associated with a reduced risk of death from all causes. The abstract of that report is posted on PubMed. > > 4)“In August 1999, the Committee on Government Reform initiated an investigation into Federal vaccine policy. This investigation focused on possible conflicts of interest on the part of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The investigation concluded that many individuals serving on two key advisory committees had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture vaccines. Often, these individuals were granted waivers to fully participate in the discussions that led to recommendations on vaccine licensing and adding vaccines to the Childhood Immunization Schedule. This in itself creates serious doubt as to how effective flu vaccines really are.” > > They don’t provide any source for this. Every year the CDC publishes the efficacy of the vaccine in an article that is peer reviewed. They make this sound like decisions behind what gets approved for the Childhood Immunization Schedule is done behind closed doors. The process is actually fairly transparent, and they cite the studies that they reference in the reasoning for inclusion in the the recommendation. Without a citation for specific punishments or fines it’s pretty clear that the author is simply trying to introduce the specter of conspiracy. A world wide conspiracy of doctors, and researches and geek’s oh my. > > 5)“51 studies involving 260,000 children age 6 to 23 months established no evidence that the flu vaccine is any more effective than a placebo. Additionally, flu shots only protect against certain strains of the virus meaning that you can still easily get the flu if you come into contact with a different strain of virus.” > > The author is actually referring to one meta analysis, that didn’t show a benefit. Once again, no citation. The efficacy varies from year to year, but it is effective. Last year it was more effective for the elderly than for children, but it’s not really possible to pool all the data of several years and come up with a legitimate conclusion. If the author won’t post the citation, I can’t critique it. That’s all too convenient. > > 6)“For someone with an already suppressed immune system, injecting strains of the flu virus can have devastating consequences. If your body is already working to fight off a virus or simply operating with low immunity, a vaccine injection could put your body in serious danger of contracting influenza with stronger symptoms, or even worse pneumonia and other contagious diseases.” > > This one is clearly a fabrication, preying on people’s lack of understanding of our immune systems. We encourage people with suppressed immune systems to get the influenza SHOT. It’s killed virus. I give it to all my HIV patients, transplant patients, and people on things like Humira. Because getting the actual influenza can kill them. We do NOT give the nasal vaccine to this group because it is not killed. It’s a live, attenuated vaccine and could cause them to get sick. > > 7)“Medical research shows flu shots are associated with an increased risk of vascular inflammation. Symptoms include fever, jaw pain, muscle aches, pain and stiffness in the neck, upper arms, shoulder and hips and headache.” > > I couldn’t even find where the quacks were talking about this. Just links to natural news. There is no link to vascular inflammation. Once again, no citation to the studies. Probably Jenny McCarthy using Dr. Oz to “peer review” her letter to the editor and claiming it’s medical research. We actually know that people vaccinated for flu have LOWER all cause mortality rates, and specifically may be protected against heart attacks, the mechanism of which is cascaded by “vascular inflammation,” which causes the blockage. > [Influenza and Cardiovascular Disease: Is There a Causal Relationship? - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387426/) > > 8 ) Children under 1 years of age are highly vulnerable to a neurotoxic breach of the delicate nerve center surrounding the brain and central nervous system. The first round of the flu vaccine is administered at age 6 months. A child under the age of 1 lacks sufficient protection to guard against premature damage to the blood barrier in the brain." > > I have no idea what that means. Just because all of the nouns and verbs are in the right places doesn’t mean it makes sense. I could simply counter it with “Duck pumpkin albatross misanthrope hootenanny.” > > 9)“There have been dozens of reported cases of children in 12 different countries who have developed narcolepsy (a chronic sleep disorder) after receiving the flu vaccine. The study, which took place between October 2009 and the December 2011, compared 3.3 million vaccinated Swedes with 2.5 million who were not vaccinated. The risk was found to be highest among the youngest people who took the vaccines. For those under the age of 21, the risk of contracting narcolepsy was three times higher.” > > I’m getting narcolepsy just reading this article. This may be the only half way legitimate item. So, in the tens to hundreds of millions of people vaccinated world wide, a few dozen now have narcolepsy. The background rate of narcolepsy in the general population was 1:100,000. The study did not compare just people in sweden but also millions of vaccinated people throughout europe. Only the people who received the very specific vaccine made by a specific manufacurer had a higher rate of narcolepsy. There were 81 people identified in all of Sweden. The age related rates were thus: “The incidence rates of narcolepsy varied by age, being around 2 per 100,000 in the 0 to 9 year age group, 3.5 in the 10 to 14 year age group and 1.7 in the 15 to 19 year age group.” The kill rate of H1N1 was 0.03% which is about 1:3000 people infected. An estimated 25% of the world was infected the first year. A Swedish person’s chance of catching influenza and dying from it was greater than the risk of a Swedish kid getting narcolepsy. Your chance of narcolepsy was 0% since we didn’t use that vaccine here. > > [http://www.cdc.gov/.../h1n1\_narcolepsy\_pandemrix.html](http://www.cdc.gov/.../h1n1_narcolepsy_pandemrix.html) > > 10)“There have been literally thousands of medical journal articles published that show injecting vaccines can lead to harmful immunological responses and a host of other infections. Moreover, weak immunological responses only decrease a person’s ability to fight the diseases that the vaccine was supposed to protect against in the first place.” > > If this were the case we wouldn’t use them. The author equates “harmful immunological response” with a “weakened immune system”, but defines neither and provides no citations to meta-analyses or review articles to back up the claim. Again, they show their ignorance of the immune system and how it functions. So many people think that it works like a thermostat where it’s one entity and it’s either up or down. That’s not how it works at all. As far as the vaccines not letting the immune system do it’s job that’s just nonsense. A good case in point is the Measles vaccine. The incidence of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis is about 100x greater in people who get natural infection versus the vaccine (though the vaccine does not likely cause this). > > [http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full](http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full) > > 11)“Evidence now suggests that ingredients in flu vaccinations can actually cause serious neurological disorders. In 1976 a significant number of those who received the flu vaccine acquired Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), a disorder characterized by permanent nerve damage and even paralysis. Flu vaccines can contain many harmful materials including detergent, mercury, formaldehyde, and strains of live flu virus.” > > Apparently they didn’t want to stop at 10, so they repeated number 2 and added formaldehyde and the ominous toxins. First, their argument that you shouldn’t get the vaccine because it is not as good as “naturally” getting the flu is not internally consistent with their claim that you shouldn’t get the vaccine because it can contain live virus (which it doesn’t). The nasal spray does. I’ve already covered Mercury, but since I missed the opportunity to put this link there in No. 2 then I’ll do it here. > [http://www.iom.edu/](http://www.iom.edu/)… > > From the CDC website: “In 1976 there was a small increased risk of GBS following vaccination with an influenza vaccine made to protect against a swine flu virus. The increased risk was approximately 1 additional case of GBS per 100,000 people who got the swine flu vaccine. The Institute of Medicine (IOM) conducted a thorough scientific review of this issue in 2003 and concluded that people who received the 1976 swine influenza vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. Scientists have multiple theories on why this increased risk may have occurred, but the exact reason for this association remains unknown.” > > So, if the baseline rate of GBS in the population was 1-2:100,000 (6,000 people per year in the US) the risk in 1976 was increased to 2-3:100,000. We have not seen the same results in subsequent years. Maybe 1:1,000,000 may be at a higher risk, but this isn’t even really demonstrated. This is still 100-1000x more rare than death by actual flu. The most common cause of Guillain-Barré is still Campylobacter jejunii, and you don’t see the author raving about that. The entire article is complete bullshit. OP: you should ask a mod if you can get the thread title changed to reflect the fact that yes, yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/5 "2013-11-08T23:15:32Z")
**Budget Player Cadet** : Outstanding. Thank you for posting that! ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/6 "2013-11-08T23:45:03Z")
Agreed! Thanks very much! Looks like there’s no debate here - I probably should have posted in GQ. Or, even better, just read the comments section of the original article. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/7 "2013-11-08T23:48:08Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > Agreed! Thanks very much! Looks like there’s no debate here - I probably should have posted in GQ. Or, even better, just read the comments section of the original article. I stand by my very succinct post #2. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/8 "2013-11-09T00:00:19Z")
Without clicking links or reading the majority of what’s already been posted, I’ve seen “farmacy” used as a meme among the naturopath folks. Sometimes to make a legitimate point that good nutrition can be a preventive measure against many modern health issues, and most of the time to go off the rails into homeopathic woo. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/9 "2013-11-09T01:23:58Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Without clicking links or reading the majority of what’s already been posted, I’ve seen “farmacy” used as a meme among the naturopath folks. Sometimes to make a legitimate point that good nutrition can be a preventive measure against many modern health issues, and most of the time to go off the rails into homeopathic woo. First thing to me that screams bullshit is that exact type of deliberate misspelling. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/10 "2013-11-09T23:10:58Z")
Considering how many people get vaccinated, even if you accept their claims at face value so few people have side effects, far less serious ones, that the drive to the vaccination clinic would be far more dangerous than the shot. If you let risks that small affect your life, you’d never get out of bed. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/11 "2013-11-10T02:39:13Z")
Thanks to **BPC** for posting that list of refutations. [Here’s a little more](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/oh-come-on-superman-bill-maher-and-western-medicine/) about Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, a “leading immunogeneticst” or “the world’s leading immunogeneticist” (if you believe Bill Maher, who accepted as gospel Fudenburg’s claims about flu vaccine causing Alzheimer’s). \*"For those of you who haven’t heard of him before, Hugh Fudenberg was a collaborator and co-inventor with Andrew Wakefield, the scientist who published an absolutely horribly designed study in the Lancet in 1998 linking the MMR vaccine to autism, nearly all of whose authors later publicly retracted their authorship. Regular readers of SBM know that this study, now thoroughly repudiated, sparked a major scare in Britain and elsewhere regarding MMR, echoes of which persist even today. Since then, evidence has since come to light that not only shows that Wakefield accepted money from lawyers planning a class action suit against vaccine manufacturers; had an undisclosed conflict of interest in that he had a patent application for a single shot measles vaccine, which would be more valuable if the MMR were thought to be unsafe; and ultimately was accused of scientific fraud based on strong evidence published by investigative journalist Brian Deer. Dr. Fudenberg also happens to have been involved in some very dubious “treatments” for autism that led to some problems with his medical license. In November 1995, the South Carolina Medical Board concluded that Fudenberg was “guilty of engaging in dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct,” and he was fined $10,000 and ordered to surrender his license to prescribe controlled substances (narcotic drugs). His medical license was also placed on suspension. In March 1996, he was permitted to resume practice under terms of probation that did not permit him to prescribe any drugs. His medical license expired in January 2004; and in March 2004, he applied to have it reinstated. However, after a hearing in which the Board considered a neuropsychatric report issued in 2003, Fudenberg agreed to remain in a “retired” status and withdrew his application for reactivation of his license."\* Fudenberg is sadly typical of the “experts” antivaxers cite in support of their claims. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/12 "2013-11-10T06:20:24Z")
I knew even before reading the thread the answer to the title was “yes”. Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arguments-against-getting-the-flu-shot-is-this-just-more-anti-vaccination-nonsense/673457/13 "2013-11-10T12:22:58Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I knew even before reading the thread the answer to the title was “yes”. > > Funny, that. Honestly, if a story like this can’t make the mainstream news (No, HuffPo, you don’t count), a story that would be so important… It’s probably bullshit.