# Argumentum ad populum. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879 "2013-04-16T21:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/21 "2013-04-16T23:42:43Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Less then 1% of population is legally insane. Less than 1% of the population has ever undergone diagnosis for legal insanity. You have to be charged with a crime and plead not guilty by reason of insanity, and then acquitted on that basis to be legally insane (or maybe guilty but insane in some states). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/22 "2013-04-17T00:24:11Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > As a libertarian, I believe that most opinions and value judgments can’t be shown right or wrong. You would be incorrect. Clinging to an opinion in contradiction of hard facts typically would qualify someone as insane or an idiot. Although often there isn’t enough information available for people to form an informed opinion. It’s my understanding that Libertarian system are about people collectively deciding for themselves what is “right” or “wrong”, as opposed to having it dictated to them by some central authority. If they are wrong, then I suppose they learn a lesson and accept the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/23 "2013-04-17T00:26:46Z")
> [@Rollo\_Tomasi](#): > > If the OP agrees with this, then the he isn’t talking about argumentum ad populum. The basic idea behind the concept is that the masses are _right_, not just that it might be worth hearing them out, even if they’re wrong in the end. I believe that every legal idea held by at least 5% of population has a place in discussion and should not be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/24 "2013-04-17T00:28:12Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I believe that every legal idea held by at least 5% of population has a place in discussion and should not be dismissed. Why should those held by less than 5% of the population be dismissed? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/25 "2013-04-17T00:29:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You would be incorrect. Clinging to an opinion in contradiction of hard facts typically would qualify someone as insane or an idiot. Although often there isn’t enough information available for people to form an informed opinion. Very often the concept of right or wrong can not be shown. Some people believe homosexuality is wrong, while some people believe intolerance to that minority is wrong. Also, in USA hiring an escort service provider is a crime, while in Canada it is legal. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/26 "2013-04-17T00:30:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why should those held by less than 5% of the population be dismissed? They may be – many would consider the ideas of Westboro Baptist Church lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/27 "2013-04-17T00:43:30Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > They may be – many would consider the ideas of Westboro Baptist Church lunatic. So you would censor them? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/28 "2013-04-17T00:47:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you would censor them? Definitely not – I believe they have won a great victory for Freedom of Speech. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/29 "2013-04-17T00:50:57Z")
Argument from Popularity is not a straight up fallacy, this much is true. In an **inductive** argument, it is perfectly valid given certain conditions (usually combined with Argument from Authority). Generally, it works when: 1. The “majority” consists of legitimate authorities on the topic 2. Said experts have evidence and/or reasoned rebuttals to the contrary argument(s) (rather than just bullying with “'cause I said so!” or “it’s always been that way!”) 3. While not necessary, it works better when the person you’re arguing with is not also an expert in the field who can evaluate the arguments on their factual merits and own experience. In other words, it’s an acceptable argument in cases where you lack the education and/or experience to create a reasoned, logical objection and must defer to accredited professionals – generally you can assume (barring obvious corruption and so on) that the majority of experts are more likely to be right than the dissenting minority. The minority may well be correct, or everyone may be wrong, but without professional/academic experience in the subject you’re not really qualified to make an argument either way. When it comes to things like morality, however, things get fuzzy. As in a lot of sociological cases where good statistics are hard to find and often contradictory. Do any groups of people really have special providence to decide what’s moral or right there? Certainly some groups can tell you how they feel it affects them and so on, but I don’t think anybody can really claim to be “more legitimate” because they’re the majority view. Overall I think in this case popularity is merely a matter of practicality rather than reason. There are as more ideas than there are people – we simply can’t have a senate hearing in which every single person voices their argument for why gays should/shouldn’t marry. I think this may be where CCitizen is going with the “\<1%” argument. So we have to distill the arguments and hash out some basic things that a bunch of people can agree on, and then those ideas, collectively, seem the best to discuss **in an official, high profile capacity**. Obviously every idea was a \<1% idea at some point. You just have to convince enough people individually that it’s a good idea, and then once it gains a big enough following the government and big conferences will discuss it. However, this seems to be the way things work already in pretty much any “free” nation. I don’t see much point in legislating it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/30 "2013-04-17T03:01:50Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Very often the concept of right or wrong can not be shown. > > Some people believe homosexuality is wrong, while some people believe intolerance to that minority is wrong. Also, in USA hiring an escort service provider is a crime, while in Canada it is legal. Right or wrong can be shown, but it does require some objective standard. For example, is anyone physically harmed by homosexuality? By what metric does one measure the “rightness” or “wrongness” of homosexuality? Or do we believe that people don’t need to be subject to things that make them uncomfortible if enough people don’t like it? We believe in government ad populum because we believe that people have a right to a say in how they are led. We don’t, however, believe in allowing the masses to make every decision because most people don’t have the wherewithall to make intelligent decisions on economics, foreign policy, defence and other complex issues. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/31 "2013-04-17T03:05:09Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Even though in many places such as Canada or Iran many ideas are illegal to discuss… What ideas are illegal to discuss in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/32 "2013-04-17T03:18:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What ideas are illegal to discuss in Canada? Dissing hockey. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/33 "2013-04-17T14:02:39Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > But if millions of people hold an opinion, the majority can not censor them. > [@](#): > > I believe that every legal idea held by at least 5% of population has a place in discussion and should not be dismissed. You do understand there is a difference between not respecting certain opinions and “censoring” them? Millions of people evidently think Obama is the antichrist, that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, that magic water (homeopathy) has great healing powers etc. These ideas have been repeatedly debunked and are not worthy of respect merely because large numbers of credulous people believe them. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/34 "2013-04-17T19:23:38Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Millions of people evidently think Obama is the antichrist, that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, that magic water (homeopathy) has great healing powers etc. These ideas have been repeatedly debunked and are not worthy of respect merely because large numbers of credulous people believe them. I am not a Christian, I am Jewish. But everyone’s religious beliefs should be respected. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/35 "2013-04-17T20:14:56Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I believe that every legal idea held by at least 5% of population has a place in discussion and should not be dismissed. That’s a nice belief. Does at least 5% of the population agree? (kidding) But seriously, significant percentages of people believe some incredibly stupid stuff. I mean, (within reason) I try to listen to all ideas and evaluate them fairly, whether they represent the ideas of one person, or one billion people. But if the idea is bad or wrong, I dismiss it no matter how many people believe it. > [@CCitizen](#): > > I am not a Christian, I am Jewish. But everyone’s religious beliefs should be respected. What do you mean by “respect” here? Can you give examples? I feel like you are actually talking about something specific here, but you don’t want to come out and say it for some reason. I think the thread would work a lot better if you just argued for whatever point you agree with, rather than dancing around like this. It’s confusing and annoying. Surely you don’t believe every idea held by at least 10,000 people has merit; that’s crazy talk. Just talk about what you want to talk about! ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/36 "2013-04-17T20:50:22Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > But seriously, significant percentages of people believe some incredibly stupid stuff. I mean, (within reason) I try to listen to all ideas and evaluate them fairly, whether they represent the ideas of one person, or one billion people. But if the idea is bad or wrong, I dismiss it no matter how many people believe it. I believe that having at least several million people who agree gives any idea considerable extra weight. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/37 "2013-04-17T21:04:39Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I believe that having at least several million people who agree gives any idea considerable extra weight. Weight to what end? Do we give them more space in the newspaper? More TV time? If a million people believe in a stupid idea, it’s still a stupid idea. Are you proposing some sort of government response? Something mandated to the media? Or what? Because right now it’s not going to win enough support to make it out of this thread intact. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/38 "2013-04-18T02:04:43Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > everyone’s religious beliefs should be respected. Really?? :dubious: In my opinion, some beliefs are too odious to merit respect. Westboro Baptist comes to mind. I respect their _right_ to their beliefs, but I do **not** respect their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/39 "2013-04-18T03:36:01Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I believe that having at least several million people who agree gives any idea considerable extra weight. Well, sure: that’s how democracies work. That’s why creationism is still an issue, even when it has no rational basis any longer. Several million people believe in it…wrongly. But they vote. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879/40 "2013-04-18T17:45:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You would be incorrect. Clinging to an opinion in contradiction of hard facts typically would qualify someone as insane or an idiot. But an opinion is not the same as a fact. Believing something is a fact in the face of factual contradiction is foolish, but an opinion is based on a judgement. Reasonable people can look at the same set of facts and develop starkly differing opinions (e.g., abortion, death penalty). > [@CCitizen](#): > > Also, in USA hiring an escort service provider is a crime, while in Canada it is legal. In the USA hiring an escort service provider is not a crime; countless escort services operate perfectly legally. Paying someone to have sex with you is a crime. > [@CCitizen](#): > > I believe that having at least several million people who agree gives any idea considerable extra weight. In this case “weight” means “so many people have this position that, in a democracy, we are obligated to consider it” but not, “If that many people have this position, it must have merit.” 1970s poster: “Eat shit. Ten million flies can’t be wrong.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/argumentum-ad-populum/655879.md?page=3)