# Ariel Sharon is an evil bastard - he gives Jews a bad name. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962 "2004-07-20T06:42:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/101 "2004-07-23T06:48:45Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > I am having a hard time believing you think anyone is saying that people should be forced to stay anywhere. People can go wherever they bloody well please, no one is saying otherwise. If your comprehension skills are this poor then, yes maybe you dum. > > Fact remains, Sharon is still a fuckwit for encouraging division between Israel and Europe. Ummm… nobody is saying otherwise? So you’ll retract your position that ‘Sharon is a fuckwit’ for saying that French Jews can leave if they don’t like France? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/102 "2004-07-23T06:53:06Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > People can go wherever they bloody well please, no one is saying otherwise. [QUOTE=antechinus] 1. Jews should not move to Israel just because people (like you) are telling them that ‘anti-semitism’ is rampant in whatever country they are citizens of. Even if there is anti Jewish behaviour, which there has always been just like there has always been anti Catholic or anti Muslim, Jewish people should stand up to it with the help of the nation that they are citizens of.[/quote[ Do I really need to say the obvious? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/103 "2004-07-23T11:04:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **clairobscur** , I already pointed out that greed is a ridiculous and untrue motivation obviously cooked up after the fact in order to get a lesser sentence. There’s noting to rob in your average schule. > > In any case, I suppose you and I will simply have to disagree on this one. > > Even if it may be ‘the law’. It sure as hell aint justice. I’ve still an issue with your reasonnings : You took two isolated cases of supposed antisemitic attacks, one which was deemed to be an accident and another not a hate crime. First, you just don’t even consider that there could have been sensible reasons for this. Like for instance that the fire could have been deemed an accident because…it actually was an accident. Nope. That’s not possible. Since it’s a synagogue which burned, it _must_ have been an antisemitic attack. And you’re ready to take the word of whatever (more than) biased site for it. That’s the first step. Now that you have decided that these were cases of hate crimes which weren’t handled properly by the french justice system, do you stop to wonder why? Nope. You immediatly assume that the only possible explanation is that the judges were antisemites. Second step. Now that you “established” that these judges were antisemite, the “logical” assumption follows : all french judges are antisemites. Third step. So, the french judicial system is antisemitic. Q.E.D. None of these parts of your reasonning is logical. But still, you felt that your statement about the judicial system in France being antisemitic was somehow proven by digging up these two cases. That’s either bad faith (anything will do providing it somehow supports my point) or blind faith (It’s written in my sacred book that France is an antisemite country, so the most flimsy evidences I will take as proofs, and anything disproving it I will ignore). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/104 "2004-07-23T11:26:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > (\*\* clairobscur\*\* you might wanna pay special attention to the above two, especially when you claim there’s no institutional/governmental anti-Semitism in France) I’m well aware of both statements. Actually, I even watched a footage of the first one on TV two days ago or so (can’t remember in which context). And no…It’s no evidence of an institutionnal anti-semitism. An institutionnal /judicial antisemitism would be antisemitic laws, or the lack of protection of Jew’s rights, or a consistent trend of antisemitic attacks being ignored by the police/the courts/the legislators. Two statements by a president and a high ranking civil servant over the course of 40 years (Actually, I could certainly dig out some others but I’m not going to help you in your holy crusade against France) doesn’t make an institutionnal antisemitism. Or else, I could certainly prove that any country is guilty of anything. In particular, it wouldn’t be difficult to prove on such a basis that Israel has institutionnalized racism against Arabs. And by the way, stating that Israel is a “shitty little country” is undiplomatic and insulting for Israel but isn’t an antisemitic statement. Finally, I would like to know if you monitor anti-arab actions or statements in Israel as closely as you do for antisemitic acts/statements in France. If you do, I must assume that you’re probably extremely pissed off at Israel and its politicians. But for some reason, I don’t believe you feel so. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/105 "2004-07-23T11:37:43Z")
For the love of Christ, why are people so dead-set on defending the Arab Muslim world against tiny Israel outnumbered 600 to 1? Yes, 600 times the land of Israel is under Arab Muslim control; meanwhile the one tiny Jewish country is constantly under scrutiny from the rest of the world while Arab Muslims massacre non-Muslims and each other in the Sudan, Nigeria and Iraq. What a joke. It just goes to show how deluded and self-hating some people become when they will fight tooth and nail against Israel while the peace and security of the world is threatened by Israel’s colossal Arab neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/106 "2004-07-23T11:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Fact remains, Sharon is still a fuckwit for encouraging division between Israel and Europe. [59% of Europeans believe Israel to be a threat to world peace](http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aaaanov006.html) I don’t think Sharon’s encouragement is going to make much of a difference. This poll was taken before these remarks were made. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/107 "2004-07-23T11:53:05Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Well, it _had_ been a whole week since we exposed someone. > > Ladies and gentlemen, **sevastopol** lives on 25, Pigboink Lane, Lllyyynnennwwggrgrhheggege, Wales, United Kingdom. Third set of lights after the Texaco station, hang a right. Across the bridge, can’t miss it. You may find that funny, yet I don’t find it funny AT ALL that Lynn Bodoni abuses her access to IP adresses to play irresponsible games with my safety. She and some members -like Mehitabel- are obsessed with my location. I stated repeatedly and very explicitely - both on the forums and in private mails to administrators/moderators - that my location should NOT be published on a public message board. **If Lynn Bodini by some unreal jackpot luck would have been able to look behind my proxies and actually got acces to my real IP, she would have published its location with no hesitation at all.** She is actively trying to locate me. She did “IP checks” on my posts previously to her publishing one of their location. For what reason? Who asks her to transfer such information? Some obsessed members are for her good enough 'reason" to find it “fair game” to play with my safety. A puzzle is as complicated as the maker makes it - and mine is in very competent hands - yet every little piece you can lay out is a step forward to its completion. My proxies are part of that puzzle. Publishing their location goes DIRECTLY against my demand for NOT publising anything about my location because even when not leading directly to it, it is a piece of my puzzle. Note to Lynn Bodoni: This IP is located in Belgium. I am not in Belgium. I am not even logged in on the SDMB or posting on the SDMB although my membername is logged in and active. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/108 "2004-07-23T12:08:11Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > I am not even logged in on the SDMB or posting on the SDMB although my membername is logged in and active. I’m not logged in or posting either. These are just figments of your overactive imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/109 "2004-07-23T14:00:15Z")
There you go again! \ ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/110 "2004-07-23T14:34:26Z")
**Aldebaran** is right. The moderators have no legitimate or proper interest in where people post from. If we elect not to say so then that should be respected. If a fraction of what **Aldebaran** alleges is true, **LB** is way out of line. Coldfire crossed the line here too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/111 "2004-07-23T19:10:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Now that you have decided that these were cases of hate crimes which weren’t handled properly by the french justice system, do you stop to wonder why? Nope. You immediatly assume that the only possible explanation is that the judges were antisemites. Second step. Well, as we went over in detail, either French law is unable to deal with Hate crimes, or the judges are. Again, Justice vs Law. And, simply for the record, my understand on French anti-Semitism does not come from ‘biased’ media sources, but from a large number of family member who’ve lived/stayed in France. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/112 "2004-07-23T19:58:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, simply for the record, my understand on French anti-Semitism does not come from ‘biased’ media sources, but from a large number of family member who’ve lived/stayed in France. Then, I can’t argue about their opinion. But I still maintain that your reasonning (a fire has been deemed an accident implies that the french judges and the french judicial system are antisemitic) is totally bogus. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/113 "2004-07-23T20:52:17Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Then, I can’t argue about their opinion. > But I still maintain that your reasonning (a fire has been deemed an accident implies that the french judges and the french judicial system are antisemitic) is totally bogus. I am perfectly willing to retract my statement about the French judicial system, although in exchange it does seem as if they are, at best, ineffective in combating hate crimes ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/114 "2004-07-24T00:16:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@antechinus](#): > > > > People can go wherever they bloody well please, no one is saying otherwise. > > > [@antechinus](#): > > > > 1. Jews should not move to Israel just because people (like you) are telling them that ‘anti-semitism’ is rampant in whatever country they are citizens of. Even if there is anti Jewish behaviour, which there has always been just like there has always been anti Catholic or anti Muslim, Jewish people should stand up to it with the help of the nation that they are citizens of. > > Do I really need to say the obvious? Obvious? Do you mean: 1. you agree with me that Jews shouldnt have to move anywhere, they should be protected by whatever country they are citizens of 2. you are saying it is obvious that you are encouraging Jews to move to Israel to avoid anti-semitism > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fact remains, you have zero right to force people to stay where they don’t want. They don’t have to wait for the nation they live in to make things okay, they can move. I reiterate, this is stating the obvious. They must not be forced to move, they must not be forced to stay, but they shouldnt have to move. . Since you have been so caught up in a non-existant argument for freedom of choice for relocation, I will remind you of my original gripe - Sharon is being divisive for encouraging Jews to move to Israel from France to avoid a persecution that is greatly exaggerated. This is bad for Jews, for reasons previously explained, but good for Sharon. And no I wont retract my statement that Sharon is a fuckwit, because his motivations are selfish and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/115 "2004-07-24T00:23:00Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > [59% of Europeans believe Israel to be a threat to world peace](http://www.emjournal.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aaaanov006.html) > > I don’t think Sharon’s encouragement is going to make much of a difference. This poll was taken before these remarks were made. Unfortunately his comments certainly wont help. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/116 "2004-07-24T00:38:32Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Even if there is anti Jewish behaviour, which there has always been just like there has always been anti Catholic or anti Muslim, **Jewish people should stand up to it with the help of the nation that they are citizens of…** (emphasis added) Should implies should. Ya know? It implies that you’re telling them what they should do. When I’m saying they should make up their own damn minds. So, yep, you are saying what they should do. > [@antechinus](#): > > Obvious? Do you mean: > > 1. you agree with me that Jews shouldnt have to move anywhere, they should be protected by whatever country they are citizens of Should have to? no… Should be told what they ‘should do?’ Also no. If they don’t want to wait around, or if their government doesn’t do enough to make them _feel_ safe, they should have the option of doing whatever they want. > [@antechinus](#): > > 1. you are saying it is obvious that you are encouraging Jews to move to Israel to avoid anti-semitism No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying, yet again, that it is a valid alternative. Not that I am encouraging them to move anywhere, but if they choose to, they’re not doing anything wrong. I’m also saying that someone who encourages/reminds them that they can always come to Israel isn’t a fuckwit. > [@antechinus](#): > > Since you have been so caught up in a non-existant argument for freedom of choice for relocation, Not non-existant at all. You have said that Jews \* should \* stay in an anti-Semitic country (or one they simply feel is anti-Semitic) so that they can work through the sytem to make things beter. As such, you deny them the _freedom of choice_ to deal with real or imagined anti-Semitism however they please. > [@antechinus](#): > > I will remind you of my original gripe - Sharon is being divisive for encouraging Jews to move to Israel from France to avoid a persecution that is greatly exaggerated. This is bad for Jews, for reasons previously explained, but good for Sharon. And no I wont retract my statement that Sharon is a fuckwit, because his motivations are selfish and dangerous. 1. Exagerated, but not non-existant. As such, you’re talking about the personal threshold of invidual Jews. How much racism is too much racism? I can tell you that I would **not** feel safe or content in a country where the word Jew was a slur. 2. As has already been pointed out, more than 50 percent of Europeans view Israel as the prime threat to world peace, this was **before** Sharon said what he said. Seems to me the divide was already there. Why not call the Europeans who think Israel is a threat to global peace “divisive fuckwits?” 1. Sharon’s motives are unknown to us, unless you’ve seen a statement as to why exactly he did it? More likely than not, he was making anti-Semitism a political issue, which, well… isn’t the action of a fuckwit. So, seriously, why is Sharon a fuckwit? Because he thinks that there’s anti-Semitism in France and advised people to leave if they didn’t like it there? Honestly, if people do, as you (sorta) claim, have the right to move wherever they want, why is it wrong for Sharon to invite them to move? ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962/117 "2004-07-24T01:26:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You have said that Jews \* should \* stay in an anti-Semitic country (or one they simply feel is anti-Semitic) so that they can work through the sytem to make things beter. Where did I say this? You know perfectly well by now what I mean. Any attempts by you to make it seem I am advocating forced relocation or forced staying-put are a waste of time. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > As such, you deny them the _freedom of choice_ to deal with real or imagined anti-Semitism however they please. Piffle. > [@Finnagain](#): > > So, seriously, why is Sharon a fuckwit? Read my earlier posts again. For his own political gain he is putting Europe off side (even more so - or at least not trying to improve the situation). This gives Jews a bad name because many people (wrongly so) equate Israel with Jews and think Sharon speaks for Jews. Many people (wrongly so) think that because the Israeli government is bad and has a fuckwit leader, that Jews are bad as well. Instead of decreasing anti Jewish sentiment, which is what he should be trying to do, this will make things worse. This is a bad thing IMNSHO. Are you starting to get the picture yet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ariel-sharon-is-an-evil-bastard-he-gives-jews-a-bad-name/255962.md?page=5)