# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/301 "2010-05-13T22:37:46Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > . . . others say they teach completely offensive things. For example, in a recorded speech a teacher said, “Republicans hate Latinos.” > > Then last year a teacher wrote an article in the local paper that said he was associated with a La Raza class and "The basic theme of the curriculum was that Mexican-Americans were and continue to be victims of a racist American society driven by the interests of middle and upper-class whites. > > **#1. In this narrative, whites are able to maintain their influence only if minorities are held down. Thus, social, political and economic events in America must be understood through this lens.** > > This biased and sole paradigm justified teaching that our community police officers are an extension of the white power structure and that they are the strongmen used “to keep minorities in their ghettos.” > > It justified telling the class that there are fewer Mexican-Americans in Tucson Magnet High School’s advanced placement courses because their “white teachers” do not believe they are capable and do not want them to get ahead. > > **#3. It justified teaching that the Southwestern United States was taken from Mexicans because of the insatiable greed of the Yankee who acquired his values from the corrupted ethos of Western civilization.** > > It was taught that the Southwest is “Atzlan,” the ancient homeland of the Aztecs, and still rightfully belongs to their descendants - to all people of indigenous Mexican heritage…" > > You can read the rest of it here [http://www.alipac.us/article3210.html](http://www.alipac.us/article3210.html) (not where it was originally published, but it’s the same article I read in the paper) Do you have another source that gaves a description of these classes other that Alipac? Have you sought out any other descriptions or reports? And if the above description is accurate, do you feel it might be better for parents/teachers/students in a school district to petition to change that rather than making a state law? Have they tried? Is #1 (as marked by me) taught in the class or is that yours or that writer’s understanding of the narrative? How is #3 mostly not true? One other question: did these classes exist prior to November 2008 or even as late as February 2009 and why do you think they are a problem that only now has to be solved? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/302 "2010-05-13T22:42:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > From **PaloVerde’s** description, and from what I’ve read, many of these classes are quite exclusionary, which is not what we should be teaching any of our children in any of our schools, ever. If they are going to teach a class from a specific ethnic point of view, it needs to be taught from a neutral perspective and be open to all students to take. Do you take **Palo Verde** ’s source at face value? He/she mentioned “a paper” but didn’t give a name. Can you give me to these other things that you’ve read so that I can learn more in a well-rounded way? > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Really I think that college is a better place for classes like that rather than high schools, anyway. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/303 "2010-05-13T23:04:11Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > One other question: did these classes exist prior to November 2008 or even as late as February 2009 and why do you think they are a problem that only now has to be solved? I want to withdraw this question as a closer reading indicates that State Achools chief Tom Horne has been pushing “this bill for years.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/304 "2010-05-13T23:54:34Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Why is that? So poor kids don’t get uppity? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/305 "2010-05-13T23:56:39Z")
Here is it in the original form, [Tucson Citizen - The Voice of Tucson](http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/85853.php) It is from a newspaper, the Tucson Citizen, which went bankrupt last year. If you google the first line, “The basic theme of the curriculum was that Mexican-Americans were and continue to be victims of a racist American society driven by the interests of middle and upper-class whites” you’ll find lots of references to it. And the Tucson Citizen was just an ordinary daily paper, not a right-wing rag or anything. The La Raza classes have been going on for many years, and have been a source of local controversy for that long. Folks have complained about it forever and picketed the school board, etc. but haven’t had any changes. By the way, I’m pretty neutral about the whole thing. I don’t think it’s as evil as some do, but I’m also not convinced it’s a great thing either. I think I’d prefer for them to get rid of it just because it has caused so much divisiveness and bitterness in this community that I don’t think it’s worth it. Arizona is the state that gives the least amount of money to their public schools, and whenever there is a vote to increase that amount, people bring out La Raza as a reason to be against it. In fact next week there will be another vote to raise the sales tax to support education, but it probably won’t pass, and it is in part because so many people are violently against La Raza. Vote YES on proposition 100! ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/306 "2010-05-14T00:25:46Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Here is it in the original form, [http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/85853.php](http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/85853.php) It is from a newspaper, the Tucson Citizen, which went bankrupt last year. If you google the first line, “The basic theme of the curriculum was that Mexican-Americans were and continue to be victims of a racist American society driven by the interests of middle and upper-class whites” you’ll find lots of references to it. And the Tucson Citizen was just an ordinary daily paper, not a right-wing rag or anything. > > The La Raza classes have been going on for many years, and have been a source of local controversy for that long. Folks have complained about it forever and picketed the school board, etc. but haven’t had any changes. Thanks for the reasonable post, after I was all over the place and had nothing but questions. I had posted so many times in a row I didn’t want to to come back and say that I figured out which paper it was; the website was stuck in there about 3 paragraphs or so down, making it seem like just a copy & paste job of “facts” that simply agreed with ALIPAC, with no further checking into the story by them. I did find lots of references to the story, the school district and La Raza. **I have to say, if things were as described, the program should not be allowed continue in that manner.** Why not advocate for changes, rather than totally dismantling and getting rid of the program? Also, you’re saying people have the power (in a roundabout way) to go to the polls (in addition to picketing) and vote down tax support for schools because of one such a program, but not the voting power to remove the school officials that allow such a travesty to continue. **I know I wouldn’t stand for something so blatantly slanted in my community.** Also, why did school officials put up with La Raza not telling them what was in the program, continue to allow them to present classes with such incendiary topics, and allow them to decide which teachers would be involved and how? It doesn’t add up. At this point, I’m more inclined to believe that Ward was let go for other reasons and simply has an axe to grind, such as when he called _guest lecturer and known activist_, Dolores Huerta, a teacher and he worked at the school. > [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > By the way, I’m pretty neutral about the whole thing. I don’t think it’s as evil as some do, but I’m also not convinced it’s a great thing either. I think I’d prefer for them to get rid of it just because it has caused so much divisiveness and bitterness in this community that I don’t think it’s worth it. Again, if you’re neutral and it could be a potentially a positive and community-building thing, why get rid of it and not try to fix it? You almost sound like someone who supports equal rights but just not if its actual workings make others too uncomfortable. I honestly ask you, is that true? > [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Arizona is the state that gives the least amount of money to their public schools, and whenever there is a vote to increase that amount, people bring out La Raza as a reason to be against it. Self-serving, don’t you think, if no one has done anything to fix what they see as the problem but instead only tried to get rid of it, and then use this to sway voters re tax support for the school district. > [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > Vote YES on proposition 100! What does this mean? Is that “Vote Yes” to increase funding for schools, _despite one aspect_ of the system that needs a bit of tinkering, or does “Vote Yes” to get rid of the La Raza classes and program? I’ve seen that bass-ackwards ballot propositions and they can sometimes be not very straightforward. And, again, why does it have to be state law, in a state that just happens to have passed another wonky law relating to minorities and immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/307 "2010-05-14T00:36:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So … this abuse happened because of the new law, did it? > > I mean, you’re offering this incident as a direct answer to my question: > > In this case, we see that the deputies were acting pursuant to a warrant, not simply picking people from the street at random: > > So your beef was that deputies would make up reasonable suspicion. You posted this in response to my question asking if that had happened… and yet a little probing reveals that they had a freakin’ warrant, signed by a judge. And that it happened before the new law even went into effect. > > So – the only one making up stuff here is you. The point was that you are giving guys like Arpaio another tool on top of the ones they already have, abuse is taking place and even with a warrant… Are you still insisting that what happen to that woman is all hunky dory? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/308 "2010-05-14T00:47:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point was that you are giving guys like Arpaio another tool on top of the ones they already have… Let me get this straight: you have a problem with giving law enforcement officers another tool to enforce the law? And a specific law, by the way, that aligns almost precisely with the federal law? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/309 "2010-05-14T00:51:20Z")
Don’t tell us that it is raining when you are pissing on us. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126480169](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126480169) > [@](#): > > The Arizona Department of Education has told schools that teachers with “heavy” or “ungrammatical” accents are no longer allowed to teach English to kids just learning to speak the language. Not a law, but the Department of education is also getting into the act. Alone, an item mentioned in this thread could be disregarded as silly, when so many appear it is really naive to still pretend that this situation is not a slippery slope when we are already sliding. Andrei Codrescu in that NPR opinion says it better: > [@](#): > > Oh boy! Did I land back behind the Iron Curtain half a century ago? My last 40 years of teaching would have never happened if the Arizona law had been the law of the land in 1966. Forty years of accented instruction gone by the wayside! Gone also the 40 years when American education, lower and higher, finally recognized the diversity of America. > > It is amazing that we have to be reminded once again that America was made great by people with accents. Would Albert Einstein have made a better baker? We’ll never know. > > Come to think of it, the Arizona law doesn’t go far enough: People with accents should be banned from any profession that involves communication. Politics, for instance. Henry Kissinger’s accent would surely qualify for the ban. And let’s not stop with the foreign-born: Ban all accents. Southern accents, for instance, or Yankee ones. Actually, there isn’t anyone who speaks without an accent, so let’s just ban communicating altogether. This would be a much better country if everyone just kept quiet and handed his proof of citizenship to the police. > > Arizona’s immigration law should be rewritten to make every person who sees a policeman just go over to that policeman and hand over voluntarily, and quietly, proof of residency in the respective police district. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/310 "2010-05-14T00:58:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let me get this straight: you have a problem with giving law enforcement officers another tool to enforce the law? And a specific law, by the way, that aligns almost precisely with the federal law? The overall context is that most are assuming that the new law will be declared unconstitutional, and you are trying to ignore that many do see those laws as unfair, unjust and I should say, Un-American. Also you are just idiotically ignoring that I’m taking into consideration who is enforcing those laws. If it was not Arpaio and his goons I would be also giving the authorities the benefit of the doubt. > **[Politics & Government Archives](https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/category/news/politics-government/)** [http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/joe\_arpaios\_secret\_immigration\_1.php](http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/joe_arpaios_secret_immigration_1.php) ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/311 "2010-05-14T01:03:58Z")
I don’t get my Republican friends who support this. While I understand their concern about illegal aliens, these are the same people who complain about Big Brother ruling our lives. As I understand the Arizona law, it is one step shy from being a fascist state. I mean, if you must keep proof of citizenship on you at all times, then Hitler has won out. “…Papers? Where are your papers! You must carry papers, or be shot!” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/312 "2010-05-14T01:05:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Alone, an item mentioned in this thread could be disregarded as silly, when so many appear it is really naive to still pretend that this situation is not a slippery slope when we are already sliding. Sliding where? I’m sure it’s not the same place that I and many in Arizona fear where sliding. What is it you fear? The rule of law? America, the country that welcomes so many cultures may want to preserve its own? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Andrei Codrescu in that NPR opinion says it better: Comrade Codrescu and yourself need to trade your Slipper Slope fallacy in and get an Excluded Middle. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/313 "2010-05-14T01:12:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The overall context is that most are assuming that the new law will be declared unconstitutional, and you are trying to ignore that many do see those laws as unfair, unjust and I should say, Un-American. > > The laws are fair, as they have been federal laws for years without a peep from anyone. if it is declared unconstitutional it will be because it’s the provence of the federal government. So, you’re talking out of your ass here. And, personally, I think the rule of law is very American. I guess we differ on that. > > Also you are just idiotically ignoring that I’m taking into consideration who is enforcing those laws. If it was not Arpaio and his goons I would be also giving the authorities the benefit of the doubt. > > [Politics & Government Archives | Phoenix New Times](http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arpaio) > > [http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/joe\_arpaios\_secret\_immigration\_1.php](http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/joe_arpaios_secret_immigration_1.php) Oh, please. He gets investigated almost as regularly as he gets re-elected. Political lighting rods get investigated all the time. Talk to me when they actually get fired or can’t get re-elected due to malfeasance. Oh, and “goons”. Ooooooooooooooooo. Scary. The thing you and other don’t like about Arpaio is that he is does his fucking job ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/314 "2010-05-14T01:16:58Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > I don’t get my Republican friends who support this. While I understand their concern about illegal aliens, these are the same people who complain about Big Brother ruling our lives. As I understand the Arizona law, it is one step shy from being a fascist state. I mean, if you must keep proof of citizenship on you at all times, then Hitler has won out. Ahem. It is already a federal law that all non-citizens need to carry identification showing the status of their being here. The Arizona law goes no further than already existing federal law. In that regard, at least. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/315 "2010-05-14T01:18:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. He gets investigated almost as regularly as he gets re-elected. Yep, even as it costs the county millions in wasted money due to stupid stunts and lawsuits that he loses. It is the perfect example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. The county and the state looks really like an idiot, but by golly he is tough and that is why they reelect him. The point is, you are also an idiot when you are bringing a sucky argumentum ad populum ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/316 "2010-05-14T01:19:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sliding where? I’m sure it’s not the same place that I and many in Arizona fear where sliding. What is it you fear? The rule of law? America, the country that welcomes so many cultures may want to preserve its own? Every other culture integrated just fine, including all those Irish, but people sure did complain about them just like you do about Hispanics. Why do you feel, say Mexicans, are different then the Irish? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/317 "2010-05-14T01:23:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Comrade Codrescu and yourself need to trade your Slipper Slope fallacy in and get an Excluded Middle. Coming from the dickhole whose bigoted stance on gay marriage is a slippery slope fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/318 "2010-05-14T01:25:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …The thing you and other don’t like about Arpaio is that he is does his fucking job No, he does what he _wishes_ was his job, but isn’t. I offer you the generous regard that you haven’t studied him closely, and would not say such foolish things if you had. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/319 "2010-05-14T01:29:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ahem. It is already a federal law that all non-citizens need to carry identification showing the status of their being here. The Arizona law goes no further than already existing federal law. In that regard, at least. About Hispanic Americans with accents, do they need to present their papers too? Or in bigoted cunt land do they not count? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/320 "2010-05-14T01:29:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sliding where? I’m sure it’s not the same place that I and many in Arizona fear where sliding. What is it you fear? The rule of law? America, the country that welcomes so many cultures may want to preserve its own? Once again, you contextually challenged excuse of a being, is that I fear unjust and unconstitutional laws. > [@magellan01](#): > > Comrade Codrescu and yourself need to trade your Slipper Slope fallacy in and get an Excluded Middle. “Comrade” Codrescu escaped a police state, of course you would have noticed that if you had bothered to read the piece. Of course you will always attempt to exclude very compelling witness that are against your sorry case. The excluded middle is ok in other states, if you are still pulling the naive card, you will have to explain properly why is then a problem to protest and make an effort to declare the new law unconstitutional? If this law is not a big difference, then lets get rid of it as unnecessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=17)