# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/401 "2010-05-16T17:21:46Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > There’s also the impression of undue stress on the part of the suspect during an interact with a cop that may become evident requiring further investigation. Dude, I have undue stress when the cops pull me over, and I’m white as the driven snow and have a near-perfect driving record. If I were brown and in Arizona and got pulled over, I’d be freaking out, regardless of immigration status. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/402 "2010-05-16T17:26:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even so, there is STILL no way to arrive at “reasonable suspicion” about that status other than race. Why do you conclude this? How about someone who bolts when asked if he’s a citizen? How is that about race? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/403 "2010-05-16T17:36:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That would come as a surprise to US citizens visiting Arizona from Puerto Rico. True, exept I sense that very few Puerto Ricans exept those who can speak English could afford to vacation in Arizona. Besides, with their warn climate, why the hell would they want to come to vacation in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/404 "2010-05-16T17:38:27Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Dude, I have undue stress when the cops pull me over, and I’m white as the driven snow and have a near-perfect driving record. If I were brown and in Arizona and got pulled over, I’d be freaking out, regardless of immigration status. You and I may think our innocent stress is undue. cops on the other hand are trained to observe beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/405 "2010-05-16T17:43:27Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > There’s also the impression of undue stress on the part of the suspect during an interact with a cop that may become evident requiring further investigation. Like **MsWhatsit** indicated above (I’m the same way with a similar clean record, though not white), undue stress could present itself simply because of the I’m not sure how you plays out procedure wise, but it sure looks like you’re willing to cede to the police another “judgment call” tool that could lead to harassment. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > True, exept I sense that very few Puerto Ricans exept those who can speak English could afford to vacation in Arizona. Besides, with their warn climate, why the hell would they want to come to vacation in Arizona. Why would their ability to speak or not speak English have anything to do with having enough money for a vacation? There are plenty of people the world over who do very well financially and can’t speak a word of English. Additionally, besides the fact that Puerto Ricans could have many reasons they’s like to visit/vacation in Arizona, they could also have relatives there they’s like to see. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/406 "2010-05-16T17:53:09Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Wages _have_ fallen, and this has hurt millions of working Americans. Illegal immigration did not cause my last job to lay me off, Thank the damned greedy folks who made sucktastic financial decisions. My previous 2 jobs layoffs were not caused by illegal immigrants, those jobs got outsourced to a foreign country. I am all for figuring out a more fair way to handle immigration, but the problem is not with the people who are running from poverty to what they see as a chance to make a living. Perhaps we should put up a fence on all the thousands of miles of borders, but we should have gates in that fence, with little Ellis Islands to process people in. Like with Ellis Island as it originally was, there were no visas, people showed up and demonstrated they were healthy and able to work, and they got in. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/407 "2010-05-16T17:59:02Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > True, exept I sense that very few Puerto Ricans exept those who can speak English could afford to vacation in Arizona. Besides, with their warn climate, why the hell would they want to come to vacation in Arizona. In Arizona it is a dry heat. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/408 "2010-05-16T18:50:43Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What about the ability to speak English? What about it? It’s not a reasonable suspicion, no. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/409 "2010-05-16T18:53:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, it does. It was quoted many times in the GD thread, and I will quote it again here for you: You can quote it as many times as you want and it’s still never going to say what you want it to say. Nothing in there says that the suspicion of illegal ressidency can’t be the _per se_ reason for the stop. It’s also still impossible to conceive of anything that would constitute “reasonable suspicion” of illegar residency other than the suspect flat out saying it, in which case, you don’t need a new law for the cops to contact ICE. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/410 "2010-05-16T18:55:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It doesn’t say the stop has to be separate from or independent of the suspicion of resident status. Yes, it does: _For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state **in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance** …_ > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can quote it as many times as you want and it’s still never going to say what you want it to say. Nothing in there says that the suspicion of illegal ressidency can’t be the _per se_ reason for the stop. Except the red, bolded, underlined section. That says it. > [@](#): > > Even so, there is STILL no way to arrive at “reasonable suspicion” about that status other than race. How about the scenario I just posted above? You seem to be ignoring it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/411 "2010-05-16T18:59:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s also still impossible to conceive of anything that would constitute “reasonable suspicion” of illegar residency other than the suspect flat out saying it, in which case, you don’t need a new law for the cops to contact ICE. Except that the new law removes the discretion. Prior to the law, a police officer could ask, and could call ICE. Now, he has to ask, if he reasonably can. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/412 "2010-05-16T19:01:13Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Why do you conclude this? How about someone who bolts when asked if he’s a citizen? What was the justification for asking if he was a citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/413 "2010-05-16T19:04:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, although it seems to me you read the GD thread in which I did just that, and even replied to the posts in that section of the thread. Did you forget? > > But here’s an example: > > A person is approached by a police officer on the street. “Say, there, partner,” says the officer, “Are you a U.S. citizen?” > > “Uh, no.” > > “Permanant legal resident?” > > “Uh… yeah.” > > “Great. Do you have your green card?” > > “I left it at home.” > > At that point, reasonable suspicion exists. What was the justification for asking in the first place. Basically you’re admitting that the cops can just randomly walk up to people and start harrassing them to show their papers. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/414 "2010-05-16T19:04:33Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Why do you conclude this? How about someone who bolts when asked if he’s a citizen? How is that about race? Of course it is about race. At that point, once he bolts, it is a FOOT race. {I’m so sorry. I couldn’t help myself.} ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/415 "2010-05-16T19:11:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > True, exept I sense that very few Puerto Ricans exept those who can speak English could afford to vacation in Arizona. Actually, Puerto Rico is irrelevant. New Mexico is an officially bi-lingual state, with, [_surprise_!], Spanish being the language recognized beside English. And while all those tiny states south of your border are probably confusing to look at, if you dig out a map you will discover that New Mexico shares a 627 km border with Arizona and the East/West interstate highways passing through either state both pass through the other, as well. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/416 "2010-05-16T19:24:19Z")
The majority of those who continue to claim that there has to be a reason other than “driving while brown” for the cops to pull you over have likely never worked a job that had them driving through a major city at 2:00 or 3:00 AM. When I used to DJ, I was regularly pulled over for “weaving”, “failure to signal”, “incomplete stops”, etc., even though I did none of those things. At that hour, cops will often follow you for extended periods, and even if you do everything right, decide that they want to check you out, assuming you’ve just come from a club. Of course, I HAD just come from a club, but I hadn’t had a drink. Thoroughly document under exactly what circumstances one is allowed to ask for your papers, and THEN we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/417 "2010-05-16T19:26:47Z")
There are some deeply rural, literally backwater, Cajun communities in Lousiana where French is the primary language, and their English is all but unrecognizable. These are people who are multigenerational, native born Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/418 "2010-05-16T19:46:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What was the justification for asking if he was a citizen? Let’s say he’s speaking broken English, with a thick Swedish accent. Would that work? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/419 "2010-05-16T19:47:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What was the justification for asking in the first place. > > Basically you’re admitting that the cops can just randomly walk up to people and start harrassing them to show their papers. Exactly, further, what protection does this offer to protect against cops who go out of their way to “investigate” Hispanics? For example as mentioned earlier, what protections are there against the cops claiming there’s a report of “illegal Hispanic immigrants in the area” and then arresting any Hispanic who doesn’t have their papers handy? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/420 "2010-05-16T19:49:04Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > For example as mentioned earlier, what protections are there against the cops claiming there’s a report of “illegal Hispanic immigrants in the area” and then arresting any Hispanic who doesn’t have their papers handy? How about the fact that the law doesn’t permit it, for starters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=22)