# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/541 "2010-05-19T18:42:38Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Personally I don’t like the idea that some Buford T Justice wannabe can roust people and demand prove of ANYTHING, without a warrant or pretty strong probable cause. It’s just a license to fuck with people. Nobody does. That’s just uninformed flaming. Read the law. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/542 "2010-05-19T19:15:37Z")
> [@campp](#): > > Nobody does. That’s just uninformed flaming. Read the law. Yes, they changed it, its true, which makes me wonder, what is the point of the law? ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/543 "2010-05-19T19:25:37Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Yes, they changed it, its true, which makes me wonder, what is the point of the law? To allow law enforcement to deal with crime. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/544 "2010-05-19T19:51:41Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Yes, they changed it, its true, which makes me wonder, what is the point of the law? Yup. Happened pretty quick, too. As far as I’m concerned, it was just about “profiling” and stopping some undefined or poorly defined “threat” that was driven purely by politics. Well, now the buzz is, Arizona is threatening to stop elctricity from flowing into California. Me, I don’t give a fuck at this point. It’s just more stupidity and posturing, purely for political purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/545 "2010-05-19T20:40:02Z")
> [@campp](#): > > To allow law enforcement to deal with crime. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/546 "2010-05-19T21:09:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Cisco, you’re wrong about _ad populum_ being the defense. It wouldn’t because a majority says so, it would be because we are hard-wired to have such a preference. I already addressed this. Very interesting that you chose to ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/547 "2010-05-19T21:12:07Z")
Wrong. It’s not very interesting at all. Sorry. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/548 "2010-05-19T22:17:08Z")
[Relevant article:](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/05/04/immigration_open_borders_welfare_state/index.html) “Open Borders or High-Wage Welfare State” ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/549 "2010-05-19T22:31:45Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > How so? The Feds won’t do anything about the problems here. The citizens have had enough, so the state is trying to save itself by enforcing immigration law. If you are here illegally, you need to leave. That’s the logic behind it. If you are here legally frankly none of us give a hoot. I’ll make it even stronger, none of us give a shit. As a 40 year resident I don’t really understand how this got so damned flamed up, nor do most of the locals. There is so much mis-information flying from every direction that it’s not even worth arguing with anyone about it. :smack: I personally think the law is a pretty dumb deal at the end of the day, but am glad to see the situation finally get some attention. Napalitano said it was Arizona’s cry for help. Pretty much nailed it. Like everywhere else, the state is bankrupt, and has few options. Repeat just so we are clear: The Feds won’t do anything about the problems here. So what are we supposed to do? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/550 "2010-05-19T22:47:21Z")
> [@campp](#): > > So what are we supposed to do? Enforce the laws against emplying illegal immigrants. Stiffen the penalties to include seizure of employer’s property: vehicles, machinery, real estate, bank accounts, lock, stock and barrel. Once the jobs dry up, the illegals will deport themselves. Why are you against enforcing the law? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/551 "2010-05-19T23:18:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Relevant article:](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/05/04/immigration_open_borders_welfare_state/index.html) “Open Borders or High-Wage Welfare State” Second relevant article (also from [salon.com](http://salon.com)): [Arizona board begins work on training for officers](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/05/19/us_immigration_police_training). I’ll note that it’s not very substantive…the headline is a pretty good summary of the content. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/552 "2010-05-19T23:28:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Enforce the laws against emplying illegal immigrants. Stiffen the penalties to include seizure of employer’s property: vehicles, machinery, real estate, bank accounts, lock, stock and barrel. Once the jobs dry up, the illegals will deport themselves. > > Why are you against enforcing the law? That is somewhat already in place, and has helped a lot. As far as stiffening, well America good luck with getting the business world to give up exploited labor. There’s your REAL issue. But meanwhile we still have a huge coyote/drug/drug war/kidnapping/torture/death/border problem. Tired of it. Who’s “against enforcing the law?” I’m all for law enforcement! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/553 "2010-05-19T23:36:11Z")
> [@campp](#): > > That is somewhat already in place, and has helped a lot. Those laws are rarely enforced, and when they are, the penalties are so light, employers treat them as a cost of doing business. Seize their assets and the illegal jobs will go away. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/554 "2010-05-19T23:42:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Those laws are rarely enforced, and when they are, the penalties are so light, employers treat them as a cost of doing business. Seize their assets and the illegal jobs will go away. This. AND go after the coyotes, drug lords, kidnappers, etc. Just going after the “small fish” who are looking for work, while the true Bad Guys get a pass, is lazy and cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/555 "2010-05-20T00:39:21Z")
Hilarity continues: [http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/](http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/) -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/556 "2010-05-20T00:43:38Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Hilarity continues: [http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/](http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/) > > -Joe Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/557 "2010-05-20T16:17:37Z")
Come up with anything yet, **magellan**? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/558 "2010-06-05T20:43:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Then how do you read this? > > > [@](#): > > > > "A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following: > > > > 1. A valid Arizona driver license. > > > > 2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license. > > > > 3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification. > > > > 4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification." > > Because it seems to me that it says, "If you’re arrested for something, we suspect you’re not legally here and you don’t have one of the IDs listed above, we’re not going to let you go before we call the feds. > > What’s your take on the subject? In further inquiry to the above posted statute, I’m not sure whether she’s correct, but [here’s](http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/03/obama.arizona.governor/index.html?hpt=Sbin) what the governor of Arizona said in her meeting with President Obama: > [@](#): > > . . . . **She also said driver’s licenses do not prove citizenship.** > “It wouldn’t matter if you are Latino or Hispanic or Norwegian,” she said. “If you didn’t have proof of citizenship and the police officer had reasonable suspicion, he would ask and verify your citizenship. I mean, that’s the way that it is. That’s what the federal law says. And that’s what the law in Arizona says.” She be misspeaking but if she is, it really would seem she didn’t understand what she signed and what she is digging her heels in about. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/559 "2010-06-05T22:40:07Z")
This seems like an apt thread to post a tangential story on race relations in AZ, as acted out via a kerfluffle concerning an elementary school mural. From [AZ Central](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/04/20100604arizona-mural-sparks-racial-debate.html), the artist and principal give different reasons for “lightening faces” on the mural, and I don’t know which of them (neither?) is being accurate. Nonetheless, the following is indicative of AZ being pretty out of control: > [@](#): > > R.E. Wall, director of Prescott’s Downtown Mural Project, said he and other artists were subjected to slurs from motorists as they worked on the painting at one of the town’s most prominent intersections. > > “We consistently, for two months, had people shouting racial slander from their cars,” Wall said. “We had children painting with us, and here come these yells of (epithet for Blacks) and (epithet for Hispanics).” Note: I came across this story via the _much_ more inflammatory story at [Wonkette](http://wonkette.com/415809/arizona-school-demands-black-latino-students-faces-on-mural-be-changed-to-white), but quoted from the more neutral source story. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/560 "2010-06-05T22:52:33Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > This seems like an apt thread to post a tangential story on race relations in AZ, as acted out via a kerfluffle concerning an elementary school mural. From [AZ Central](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/04/20100604arizona-mural-sparks-racial-debate.html), the artist and principal give different reasons for “lightening faces” on the mural, and I don’t know which of them (neither?) is being accurate. Nonetheless, the following is indicative of AZ being pretty out of control: > [http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510\_prescott\_fired](http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510_prescott_fired) > Note: I came across this story via the _much_ more inflammatory story at [Wonkette](http://wonkette.com/415809/arizona-school-demands-black-latino-students-faces-on-mural-be-changed-to-white), but quoted from the more neutral source story. Well, there is hope. The latest is that the school district admired their error and there will be no changes made to the mural, and the local piece of trash conservanut radio host that had been fanning the flames and making an issue of the mural was fired. He is still a city council member AFAIK so we will see if he is also kicked out of there. [http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510\_prescott\_fired](http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510_prescott_fired) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=29)