# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/561 "2010-06-05T23:02:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The latest is that the school district admired their error… Well it _was_ a very _handsome_ error! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/562 "2010-06-05T23:04:09Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Well it _was_ a very _handsome_ error! 😃 ADMITTED… :smack: The perils of trusting your spell checker.. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/563 "2010-06-05T23:42:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, there is hope. > > The latest is that the school district admired their error and there will be no changes made to the mural, and the local piece of trash conservanut radio host that had been fanning the flames and making an issue of the mural was fired. He is still a city council member AFAIK so we will see if he is also kicked out of there. > > [http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510\_prescott\_fired](http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/060510_prescott_fired) > **[Arizona Elementary School Will Whiten The Faces Of Its Own Students On A...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/arizona-elementary-school-mural_n_601436)** > > This is just the worst story in the world. We're talking about a group of adults who have decided to send a stirring message to their students and the world: when a bunch of mentally deranged adults threaten a bunch of children, the best thing to do... An Arizona elementary school mural featuring the faces of kids who attend the school has been the subject of constant daytime drive-by racist screaming, from adults, as well as a radio talk-show campaign (by an actual city councilman, who has an AM talk-radio show) to remove the black student’s face, and now the school principal has ordered the faces of the Latino and Black students to be changed to Caucasian skin. > [@](#): > > I am not a racist individual, but I will tell you depicting a black guy in the middle of that mural, based upon who’s President of the United States today and based upon the history of this community, when I grew up we had four black families - who I have been very good friends with for years - to depict the biggest picture on that building as a black person, I would have to ask the question, ‘Why?’ -City Councilman Steve Blair Way to go Arizona. It keeps getting better and better. Yeah, none of the crap in Arizona was ever about race, and none of it ever will be (yeah, uh uh). Nothing ever is :rolleyes: Racist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/564 "2010-06-06T21:24:22Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > In further inquiry to the above posted statute, I’m not sure whether she’s correct, but [here’s](http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/03/obama.arizona.governor/index.html?hpt=Sbin) what the governor of Arizona said in her meeting with President Obama: > > She be misspeaking but if she is, it really would seem she didn’t understand what she signed and what she is digging her heels in about. I imagine she meant out-of-state driver’s licenses. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/565 "2010-06-06T21:59:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > [Arizona Elementary School Will Whiten The Faces Of Its Own Students On A Mural Because Some Racists Yelled At It [UPDATE] | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/04/arizona-elementary-school-mural_n_601436.html) > > An Arizona elementary school mural featuring the faces of kids who attend the school has been the subject of constant daytime drive-by racist screaming, from adults, as well as a radio talk-show campaign (by an actual city councilman, who has an AM talk-radio show) to remove the black student’s face, and now the school principal has ordered the faces of the Latino and Black students to be changed to Caucasian skin. > Way to go Arizona. It keeps getting better and better. Yeah, none of the crap in Arizona was ever about race, and none of it ever will be (yeah, uh uh). Nothing ever is :rolleyes: > > Racist asshole. I find that whenever someone starts a sentence with “I am not a racist individual” or some variation thereof, it usually means they are. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/566 "2010-06-06T22:20:29Z")
I hesitate to even ask this. But what the hell. First let me clearly state, up front, I don’t have the slightest sympathy for the drive-by idiots or the now-fired radio host, or what they were asking for. But let me ask this hypothetical: suppose you were to learn that the mural’s artists originally proposed a mural of four white children. And that the principal (or some other approving official) questioned this choice, and the artists’ rationale was that the school had a 97% white population, so a fair numerical cross-section of the school’s student body on the mural was in fact four white faces. And suppose that this approving official said in response, “It doesn’t matter what the numbers are: we need to show diversity.” As a result of those circumstances, the mural was painted with a Hispanic child in the prominent position and African-American children also displayed. Would that also indicate racism? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/567 "2010-06-06T22:30:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I hesitate to even ask this. > > But what the hell. > > First let me clearly state, up front, I don’t have the slightest sympathy for the drive-by idiots or the now-fired radio host, or what they were asking for. > > But let me ask this hypothetical: suppose you were to learn that the mural’s artists originally proposed a mural of four white children. And that the principal (or some other approving official) questioned this choice, and the artists’ rationale was that the school had a 97% white population, so a fair numerical cross-section of the school’s student body on the mural was in fact four white faces. > > And suppose that this approving official said in response, “It doesn’t matter what the numbers are: we need to show diversity.” As a result of those circumstances, the mural was painted with a Hispanic child in the prominent position and African-American children also displayed. > > Would that also indicate racism? No, but just for a moment disregarding any “percentage of darkness”, or whatever you are getting at, when some fuckwad radio jockey / city councilman stirs the shit up and gets other fuckwads to drive by yelling racist shit, here’s yer sign. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/568 "2010-06-06T22:37:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I hesitate to even ask this. > > But what the hell. > > First let me clearly state, up front, I don’t have the slightest sympathy for the drive-by idiots or the now-fired radio host, or what they were asking for. > > But let me ask this hypothetical: suppose you were to learn that the mural’s artists originally proposed a mural of four white children. And that the principal (or some other approving official) questioned this choice, and the artists’ rationale was that the school had a 97% white population, so a fair numerical cross-section of the school’s student body on the mural was in fact four white faces. > > And suppose that this approving official said in response, “It doesn’t matter what the numbers are: we need to show diversity.” As a result of those circumstances, the mural was painted with a Hispanic child in the prominent position and African-American children also displayed. > > Would that also indicate racism? First, is there any reason to believe that this is what happened? Second, I haven’t studied Prescott in particular much (though I know it was the state capital at one time and our first govenor’s “mansion” is there), but knowing what I know about Arizona, it’s no reach to say a hispanic person probably deserves to be included in some public art there. Third, is inclusion ever as bad as exclusion? Is it equivalent? Lastly, does it bother you, or make you feel any different at all, that these were REAL CHILDREN? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/569 "2010-06-06T23:48:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But let me ask this hypothetical: suppose you were to learn that the mural’s artists originally proposed a mural of four white children. And that the principal (or some other approving official) questioned this choice, and the artists’ rationale was that the school had a 97% white population, so a fair numerical cross-section of the school’s student body on the mural was in fact four white faces. What the hell does that have to do with the price of fried chicken in Kansas, Bricker? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/570 "2010-06-07T00:16:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I imagine she meant out-of-state driver’s licenses. Yes, **Bricker** , I expect so, but so what? Half of the argument from your side has been along the lines of, “You just need to show your driver’s license,” to which I have been incessantly ignored when I reply, “Driver’s licenses don’t prove legal residence!” Well, now the governor that signed the bill agrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/571 "2010-06-07T00:24:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I hesitate to even ask this. You should have hesitated even longer. I have often found when I am about to post something that I hesitate to post, that there is a good reason I am hesitating. I have found that when I do hit “Submit Reply” on such a post, I usually regret it, and when I don’t submit it, I don’t regret not submitting it. Mulling over till the next day gives me an opportunity to think a little more, to word it a little better, and, frankly, sometimes to not post it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/572 "2010-06-07T17:34:24Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > First, is there any reason to believe that this is what happened? None whatsoever. I absolutely identified it as a hypothetical, made up. > [@](#): > > Second, I haven’t studied Prescott in particular much (though I know it was the state capital at one time and our first govenor’s “mansion” is there), but knowing what I know about Arizona, it’s no reach to say a hispanic person probably deserves to be included in some public art there. That would be the point of my hypothetical question, though - what if, in this particular case, there were no actual Hispanic children at the school? > [@](#): > > Third, is inclusion ever as bad as exclusion? Is it equivalent? I don’t even know how to answer this. Yes, no, what of it? Since I obviously think what these yahoos were doing was terrible, I have weighed on on the bad aspects of the exclusion side. > [@](#): > > Lastly, does it bother you, or make you feel any different at all, that these were REAL CHILDREN? Sure - it’s an obvious real-world example of the idiocy of the demands to remove the Hispanic child… he wasn’t a mascot, or a generic attempt at “inclusiveness” – he was an actual student. In fact, that’s kind of what my hypothetical rests on: I’m asking you if there were no, or vanishingly few, actual students that looked Hispanic, how would you feel about a requirement to portray one? What if, in other words, the “real student” argument did not favor your position? Would it be as compelling as it is in the real-world case? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/573 "2010-06-07T17:35:26Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yes, **Bricker** , I expect so, but so what? Half of the argument from your side has been along the lines of, “You just need to show your driver’s license,” to which I have been incessantly ignored when I reply, “Driver’s licenses don’t prove legal residence!” Well, now the governor that signed the bill agrees with me. Right. well, now there’s a bit of clarity. Out-of-state drivers’ licenses do not prove legal residence; Arizona drivers’ licenses do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/574 "2010-06-07T17:37:40Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > What the hell does that have to do with the price of fried chicken in Kansas, Bricker? I’m trying to explore how compelling the “real student” argument is. Obviously, in the actual case in front of us, the real student is cause to say, “Leave the mural alone.” Now I want to explore the reverse set of facts: there is no actual Hispanic student at the school; it’s lily-white. Is the “real student” argument still convincing? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/575 "2010-06-07T18:03:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > None whatsoever. I absolutely identified it as a hypothetical, made up. > > That would be the point of my hypothetical question, though - what if, in this particular case, there were no actual Hispanic children at the school? > > I don’t even know how to answer this. Yes, no, what of it? Since I obviously think what these yahoos were doing was terrible, I have weighed on on the bad aspects of the exclusion side. > > Sure - it’s an obvious real-world example of the idiocy of the demands to remove the Hispanic child… he wasn’t a mascot, or a generic attempt at “inclusiveness” – he was an actual student. In fact, that’s kind of what my hypothetical rests on: I’m asking you if there were no, or vanishingly few, actual students that looked Hispanic, how would you feel about a requirement to portray one? What if, in other words, the “real student” argument did not favor your position? Would it be as compelling as it is in the real-world case? You’re literally saying “I am absolutely handwaving and attempting to distract and derail the discussion. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.” How is anyone supposed to respond to that? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/576 "2010-06-07T18:08:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right. well, now there’s a bit of clarity. Out-of-state drivers’ licenses do not prove legal residence; Arizona drivers’ licenses do. Can someone explain/clarify this? When I moved to AZ 7 years ago all I had to do was basically show my NC license to get an AZ one. If this has changed, it wouldn’t matter too much, considering that my license doesn’t need to be renewed until 2046. And that’s not a typo. Twenty forty-six. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/577 "2010-06-07T18:09:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now I want to explore the reverse set of facts: there is no actual Hispanic student at the school; it’s lily-white. Is the “real student” argument still convincing? Images of white people bombard blacks and Latinos (and Asian and other minorities) way out of proportion of their true numbers, so my response to these whiners would be “Welcome to the world of Everyone Else. Take your seat and STFU”. Sorry, but a single mural that depicts a tanned little boy doesn’t come anywhere close to the overexposure given to Caucasian faces–not just in the US but worldwide. No sympathy should be given to these self-entitled, etho-centric idiots. Not in a society where stores still market pale hosiery as nude. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/578 "2010-06-07T19:05:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now I want to explore the reverse set of facts: there is no actual Hispanic student at the school; it’s lily-white. Is the “real student” argument still convincing? If there’s a school in Arizona with no minority children in it at all I’d be a bit worried about the local school board’s busing policy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/579 "2010-06-07T21:25:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re literally saying “I am absolutely handwaving and attempting to distract and derail the discussion. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.” How is anyone supposed to respond to that? Distracting and derailing a conversation has become\* Sine qua non\* for **Bricker** of late. Perhaps he’s testing out a new debate technique on us. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/580 "2010-07-06T20:23:58Z")
Well, [this ought to get interesting.](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/July/10-opa-776.html) I’ll be curious to see how quickly things move now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=30)