# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/41 "2010-04-24T15:17:38Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’m having a hard time understanding why _even in theory_ this is good. Illegal immigrants are illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/42 "2010-04-24T15:19:42Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > She just signed it, but it will almost certainly be challenged in court immediately and there’s a fair chance that any enforcement of the law will be stayed by a federal judge. on what basis? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/43 "2010-04-24T15:27:25Z")
it appears to me from the general tenor of this thread that many, if not most, of the participants here think it is wrong for the authorities to deport an otherwise law-abiding illegal alien. or am i mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/44 "2010-04-24T15:30:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > on what basis? How about that it’s overtly fucking racist. How about that it involves a presumption of guilt. How about the fact that it selects out only one particular group of citizens, based purely on race (or perception of race) and requires them to carry papers around like they’re Jews in Nazi Germany. It’s racial discrimination, pure and simple. Before you start in with your usual pedantry, though, why don’t you tell us waht you actually think of the law. It would apply specifically to you, you know. You have that Salavadoran heritage. That means one thing in Arizona – ILLEGAL MEXICAN, where are your papers, boy? What do you mean you don’t carry your birth certificate around? You’re going to jail. You’re guilty of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/45 "2010-04-24T15:32:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > it appears to me from the general tenor of this thread that many, if not most, of the participants here think it is wrong for the authorities to deport an otherwise law-abiding illegal alien. or am i mistaken? You’re either mistaken or stunningly disingenuous. The issue is not what the law does to illegal aliens, but what it does to _legal_ residents, and to American citizens who don’t look lily white. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/46 "2010-04-24T15:39:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > it appears to me from the general tenor of this thread that many, if not most, of the participants here think it is wrong for the authorities to deport an otherwise law-abiding illegal alien. or am i mistaken? I think the furor is more over the idea of police officers and people harassing American Citizens that could LOOK like law-abiding illegal aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/47 "2010-04-24T15:48:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Illegal immigrants are illegal. No, they’re not. The goal of this law is to make them “illegal.” I am so fucking ashamed of my state right now I want to scream. I’m thinking of printing a tshirt that says “I am an illegal alien” and spending as much of my free time as possible standing on a street corner in front of Home Depot without proof of my citizenship. Maybe I’ll even hold up a sign asking for work. I have freedom of speech, right? I can hold up a sign and wear any tshirt I want on public property, right? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/48 "2010-04-24T15:54:02Z")
I wonder what would happen if my family was visiting Arizona and we were stopped for a traffic violation. Would the police officer notice my blond-haired, blue-eyed husband’s Australian accent and ask to see his immigration “papers”? I have a really hard time believing that that’s what would occur. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/49 "2010-04-24T15:54:15Z")
> [@ToeJam](#): > > I think the furor is more over the idea of police officers and people harassing American Citizens that could LOOK like law-abiding illegal aliens. Sort of like [Born in East L. A.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_in_East_L.A.) Except not funny… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/50 "2010-04-24T15:56:26Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > As a resident of Arizona’s oft-forgotten neighbor, which has an even greater percentage of hispanic/latino residents than Arizona (NM is ~45 hispanic, AZ is ~30%) The article in the paper this AM said that polling showed this bill had support from 70% of the population. What an amazing coincidence! > [@Bricker](#): > > ``` > it appears to me from the general tenor of this thread that many, if not most, of the participants here think it is wrong for the authorities to deport an otherwise law-abiding illegal alien. or am i mistaken? > > ``` Can you quote something from this thread that makes you think that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/51 "2010-04-24T15:58:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about that it’s overtly fucking racist. You only think it’s racist because Arizona shares a border that many illegals come through, and the people who come through that border generally fit fit one race. So while their is undeniably a racial component, the "racist " charge [:rolleyes:] is a bugaboo in your own head that you try to wield to try to demonize a group who believe that people shouldn’t be here illegally. It might interest you to know that a lot of those “racist” people are hispanic themselves. [From here:](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections2/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/arizona/70_of_arizona_voters_favor_new_state_measure_cracking_down_on_illegal_immigration) > [@](#): > > Opponents of the measure, including major national Hispanic groups, say it will lead to racial profiling, and 53% of voters in the state are concerned that efforts to identify and deport illegal immigrants also will end up violating the civil rights of some U.S. citizens. Forty-six percent (46%) don’t share that concern. > > Those figures include 23% who are very concerned and 18% who are not at all concerned. Now, does this law make it possible for the police to abuse it as a tool. Yes it does. And if that turns out to be the case I’m sure it will cause enough problems for it to be overturned. But it isn’t necessarily the case that it will be abused. So, how about you stop deeming the police guilty and give _them_ the presumption of innocence? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/52 "2010-04-24T16:01:25Z")
I’m not a lawyer, so the two sections of the bill are confusing to me. I’m not sure if they allow an officer to stop a person solely on probable cause of being an illegal alien or just determine that of a stop is made for some other reason. > [@](#): > > B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). > [@](#): > > E. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND THIS SECTION. ETA: In particular the wording " IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW AND THIS SECTION". Does this really mean it must be a stop based on a civil law violation AND suspicion illegal immigration status? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/53 "2010-04-24T16:03:04Z")
> [@C3](#): > > I wonder what would happen if my family was visiting Arizona and we were stopped for a traffic violation. Would the police officer notice my blond-haired, blue-eyed husband’s Australian accent and ask to see his immigration “papers”? I have a really hard time believing that that’s what would occur. It seems to me that an awful lot of people think that Arizona should just ignore the fact that they share the border with Mexico and that millions of people have crossed—and do cross—over that border illegally. Perhaps you think that the law wold only be fair if it resulted in an equal number of illegal Mexicans, Guatemalans, and Austrians are stopped and eventually deported. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/54 "2010-04-24T16:06:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The article in the paper this AM said that polling showed this bill had support from 70% of the population. What an amazing coincidence! As I just posted above (I think from that same article): > [@](#): > > **Opponents of the measure, including major national Hispanic groups** , say it will lead to racial profiling, and 53% of voters in the state are concerned that efforts to identify and deport illegal immigrants also will end up violating the civil rights of some U.S. citizens. **Forty-six percent (46%) don’t share that concern.** > > Those figures include 23% who are very concerned and 18% who are not at all concerned. (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/55 "2010-04-24T16:08:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You only think it’s racist because Arizona shares a border that many illegals come through, and the people who come through that border generally fit fit one race. So while their is undeniably a racial component, the "racist " charge [:rolleyes:] is a bugaboo in your own head that you try to wield to try to demonize a group who believe that people shouldn’t be here illegally. It might interest you to know that a lot of those “racist” people are hispanic themselves. [From here:](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections2/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/arizona/70_of_arizona_voters_favor_new_state_measure_cracking_down_on_illegal_immigration) > > Now, does this law make it possible for the police to abuse it as a tool. Yes it does. And if that turns out to be the case I’m sure it will cause enough problems for it to be overturned. But it isn’t necessarily the case that it will be abused. So, how about you stop deeming the police guilty and give _them_ the presumption of innocence? Let’s turn the tables a bit and allow the police to stop anyone they suspect of domestic terrorism, and that another OK City bombing has occurred. Is it OK to single out cars that have conservative bumper stickers, or wait in the parking lot of a tea bagger rally and pull people over for questioning, or people who’s radio is playing Limbaugh? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/56 "2010-04-24T16:10:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It seems to me that an awful lot of people think that Arizona should just ignore the fact that they share the border with Mexico and that millions of people have crossed—and do cross—over that border illegally. You know, this is a little like beating a guy up, stealing his car, and then complaining that the AC doesn’t work. We have NO room to talk about Mexicans not respecting borders. At least it’s their hard-ass workers coming over here and not their army. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/57 "2010-04-24T16:11:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It seems to me that an awful lot of people think that Arizona should just ignore the fact that they share the border with Mexico and that millions of people have crossed—and do cross—over that border illegally. Perhaps you think that the law wold only be fair if it resulted in an equal number of illegal Mexicans, Guatemalans, and Austrians are stopped and eventually deported. Not an equal number, but if they’re going to ask everyone with dark skin & a Mexican accent for their papers, I would expect them to also require proof of citizenship or legal residency from everyone who has a foreign accent. I’ve known many more people here illegally from the UK and South Africa than Mexico. I know that there aren’t more illegal aliens from those countries than there are from Mexico and Central/South America, but there aren’t none. If this law isn’t racial profiling, then they won’t make exceptions for people who are potentially here illegally from any country. Do you think that’s likely? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/58 "2010-04-24T16:20:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You only think it’s racist because Arizona shares a border that many illegals come through, and the people who come through that border generally fit fit one race. No, I say that because it illegally selects out non-white citizens for harrassment and imposes restrictions on them (on natural born _citizens_) that it does not impose on white people. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/59 "2010-04-24T16:23:15Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Not an equal number, but if they’re going to ask everyone with dark skin & a Mexican accent for their papers, I would expect them to also require proof of citizenship or legal residency from everyone who has a foreign accent. Not good enough; foreign infiltrators are nothing if not crafty. We need a simple, foolproof field test that can be quickly applied. For example: 1. What are the three branches of the United States government? 2. Who is the author of the “Star-Spangled Banner”? 3. Who is the current Secretary of State of the United States? Anyone who answers all three correctly is clearly not a U.S. citizen and should be detained immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/60 "2010-04-24T16:24:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It seems to me that an awful lot of people think that Arizona should just ignore the fact that they share the border with Mexico and that millions of people have crossed—and do cross—over that border illegally. Perhaps you think that the law wold only be fair if it resulted in an equal number of illegal Mexicans, Guatemalans, and Austrians are stopped and eventually deported. What’s unfair about it is that it harrasses _citizens_, and that it does so based on race. What it may or may not do to undocumented residents is immaterial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=4)