# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/581 "2010-07-06T22:23:04Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Well, [this ought to get interesting.](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/July/10-opa-776.html) I’ll be curious to see how quickly things move now. The Right turns this into “Obama’s agenda is to let [Mexicans/the Catholic Church/Muslims/Terrorists/Socialists/Etc] take over America” in 3, 2, 1 . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/582 "2010-07-07T13:21:29Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Well, [this ought to get interesting.](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/July/10-opa-776.html) I’ll be curious to see how quickly things move now. The brief argues the federal preemption question, which I regard as the argument with the best chance of knocking this down… although I don’t think it will. Certainly it will be interesting to see this develop. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/583 "2010-07-07T13:34:19Z")
Is it theoritically possible for the feds to pass a law that limits the circumstances in which federal immigration documents must be produced? In other words, could the feds make it illegal to enforce the part of the state law that requires federal document production? (For example, where I live (non-USA) it is illegal to demand that a person produce a government health insurance card as identification, except for medical purposes.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/584 "2010-07-07T14:00:10Z")
Interesting question, but not really practical, since the federal government certainly wants states to verify residency before providing welfare or Medicaid, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/585 "2010-07-07T16:01:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The brief argues the federal preemption question, which I regard as the argument with the best chance of knocking this down… although I don’t think it will. > > Certainly it will be interesting to see this develop. Don’t be so sure, especially on the portion of the law that makes it a crime for _legal_ immigrants not to carry papers. The state of Arizona has no jurisdiction to make that a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/586 "2010-07-07T16:23:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Don’t be so sure, especially on the portion of the law that makes it a crime for _legal_ immigrants not to carry papers. The state of Arizona has no jurisdiction to make that a requirement. All this time, and you haven’t even read the law yet, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/587 "2010-07-07T16:30:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All this time, and you haven’t even read the law yet, huh? That was a direct quote from Fox News. “The new law makes it a crime for legal immigrants not to carry documentation.” Fox News wouldn’t lie to me, would they? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/588 "2010-07-07T16:31:53Z")
Well, not specifically to\* you\*. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/589 "2010-07-07T16:42:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That was a direct quote from Fox News. “The new law makes it a crime for legal immigrants not to carry documentation.” Fox News wouldn’t lie to me, would they? Do you have a cite for that? It doesn’t seem right. It’s been mentioned in several threads and other things I’ve read that it is already a federal legal requirement that non-citizens legally here must carry papers with them. I’m sure **Bricker** will lay it out for you, as he’s supplied the cites elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/590 "2010-07-07T16:44:12Z")
Failing to comply with a requirement is not necessarily a crime. I forget if there are penalties attached. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/591 "2010-07-07T16:49:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? I heard it on Fox News yesterday. The Shep Smith show, I think. I was surprised to hear it too. I didn’t know the law was that explicit. I do think that would be the de facto result even if it isn’t explicit. How is a legal immigrant supposed to prove he’s legal without papers? And if the cops have to take a guy’s word for it that he’s legal, then what’s the point of asking at all? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/592 "2010-07-07T18:01:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I heard it on Fox News yesterday. The Shep Smith show, I think. I was surprised to hear it too. I didn’t know the law was that explicit. Who said it on Fox News? Someone who is against the law, perhaps, and who has a motive to mischaracterize the law? > [@](#): > > I do think that would be the de facto result even if it isn’t explicit. How is a legal immigrant supposed to prove he’s legal without papers? And if the cops have to take a guy’s word for it that he’s legal, then what’s the point of asking at all? You know, this statement really amazes me. When the discussions over this law began, I resolved that every single time this question came up, i would calmly and politely refute the misconception, and provide examples. I don’t know how many times I have provided same dialog between cops and the persons they encounter to show the precise question the cops would ask, and the precise point at which reasonable suspicion develops. Did you not read any of them? Really? Not one? OK. Here, again, are the answers to these questions: The Arizona law says that if a person is detained for the violation of some other, non-immigration-related crime, and there is reasonable suspicion about his immigration status, then the officer must make an effort to verify his immigration status. Arizona does NOT make it a crime to fail to carry papers. **How is a legal immigrant supposed to prove he’s legal without papers?** If it’s established that he is a legal immigrant, then _federal law_ already makes it a requirement that he carry papers. 8 USC § 1304(3) says: > [@US Code](#): > > Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. Arizona law simply says that you’re not allowed to be in Arizona if you’re in violation of federal immigration law. Arizona law creates a presumption that if you have an Arizona driver’s license, you’re legal, even if you don’t have the documents that federal law requires you to have. Arizona law also says that if you have a driver’s license from any other state that has a “legal presence” requirement to issue drivers’ licenses, you’re presumed to be here legally. **And if the cops have to take a guy’s word for it that he’s legal, then what’s the point of asking at all?** By the same token, you might ask, “If the cops have to get a guy’s permission before searching his car, what’s the point of asking, since they’ll just say no?” But in fact, experience teaches us that most say yes, even though the resulting search turns up contraband and they know it will. In this case, if a person says, “I am a citizen,” then there’s very little the cops can do to him. But the reality is that most people won’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/593 "2010-07-07T18:02:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Failing to comply with a requirement is not necessarily a crime. I forget if there are penalties attached. 8 USC § 1304(e) provides that failure to carry alien registration documents is a federal crime, punishable by a fine and jail for up to 30 days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=29)