# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/121 "2010-04-25T03:13:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I believe the risk of more than a slight delay is virtually non-existent. ::spit take:: You don’t know the MCSO, buddy. So when (notice I don’t say “if”) this law is shown to have been grossly abused, you’ll come out against it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/122 "2010-04-25T03:17:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s true. > > It’s unclear to me just how the verification of citizenship will go. This should be enough to ensure your objection, all by itself. If the backers of this legislation were concerned at all about possible abuse of the law, they’d have included specific language regarding what constitutes valid proof of citizenship. Stop being a lawyer for a moment, and be a person. Then tell me you don’t find the law problematic. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/123 "2010-04-25T03:23:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can argue that it is a violation of the equal protection clause in the 14th Amendment. You can also argue that it is a restriction of your right to travel and/or infringes on your right of privacy. That would make it counter to the 1st Amendment. > I can see big time court cases being generated by Arizonan prejudice. And surely all the teabaggers, who so eagerly flash their copies of the Constitution at their gatherings, will rally to the defense the victims when such injustices occur. Won’t they? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/124 "2010-04-25T03:33:57Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > ::spit take:: You don’t know the MCSO, buddy… Why, whatever have you heard? Oh, I know there are rumors floating, about how the methods aren’t exactly in line with what lily-livered liberals would want, without all the coddling and stuff… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/125 "2010-04-25T04:30:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It depends. > > “Stoppe with my family as I’m walking into a restaurant…” This hypothetical fails to lay out the basis for the stop. The law clearly specifies that it applies to legal stops, so I have two different possible assumptions here: I am detained illegally, with no valid predicate suspicion, or I am detained legally, for some reasonable, articulable suspicion that you failed to identify. I didn’t read the law, but from the NYT article I read it suggests that they can just stop you based on a subjective assessment without another reason to stop you: > [@NYT](#): > > Most police agencies or jails here already check the immigration status of people charged with a crime, in consultation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, but the new law would expand that power and allows the police to stop people on the suspicion of being in the country without documents. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html) From that it seems that you could just look a little too brown and they can hassle you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/126 "2010-04-25T04:32:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > **bolding** mine – **kd99** > > **Dio** , your opposition to this law is right; let me make that clear from the start. However, you don’t do yourself or our cause any favors when you put forward an absolute assertion like the one I have bolded above. > > There is no argument that the law carries within its wording any safeguards _against_ the harrassment of citizens. But this is a completely different statement than your assertion, which can be interpreted as a claim that the purpose of the law is _to harrass citizens, and nothing else._ I didn’t say “…and nothing else,” but as a matter of fact, I do believe that the intention is to legitimize racial harrassment and ethnic cleansing. That’s what I honestly think. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/127 "2010-04-25T04:35:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I didn’t read the law, but from the NYT article I read it suggests that they can just stop you based on a subjective assessment without another reason to stop you: > [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html) > > From that it seems that you could just look a little too brown and they can hassle you. Yes. It does not have to be in conjunction with any other stop. “Suspicion” that you are in the US illegally (i.e. observing that an individual has brown skin) is grounds, in itself, for stopping someone and demanding to see their papers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/128 "2010-04-25T04:45:08Z")
Jiminy Cynic, Jiminy Cricket’s evil twin, suggests to me that its even more venal than that. That they know damned good and well that this will not fly, Constitution wise. So they win. They got out there and did their damndest, by gum, but those liberal justices just can’t see things clear like a hard-headed realist does. Win. Latino outrage only encourages them, they want to fan the racism without seeming as if they are. So they don’t rag on Latinos, they snooker the Latinos into ragging on them, the poor dears. Win. And if, by some malign miracle, the Supremes give this their official kosher stamp, well, then its Katy bar the door, now, isn’t it! Yeee-haw, win! win! WIN! (Yeah, I see and hear crickets, and they talk to me. So?) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/129 "2010-04-25T04:49:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (Yeah, I see and hear crickets, and they talk to me. So?) Still having the acid flashbacks, eh? Toldja to stay away from the brown tabs, but did you listen to me? Nooooooooooooo. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/130 "2010-04-25T04:57:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say “…and nothing else,” but as a matter of fact, I do believe that the intention is to legitimize racial harrassment and ethnic cleansing. That’s what I honestly think. :eek: And while I’m at it, :smack: I won’t deny that such will be a frequent outcome, and I won’t deny that many of this law’s supporters will consider that outcome to be a happy side effect of its implementation, but there’s a train to **Der Trihs** ville leaving soon, and an assertion like that makes me think you’ve got a timetable in your pocket, bud. Have a nice trip. I hope it’s just for a visit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/131 "2010-04-25T05:25:03Z")
**Doggyknees** will get off in Hooterville… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/132 "2010-04-25T06:54:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I loked but couldn’t find any charts detailing illegal immigration numbers by year going back more then a decade or two. But Reagan’s irresponsible and boneheaded move to grant amnesty to near 3 million shows that the problem had been out of control for quite a while. But that just begs the question of defining what was so “out of control” about the 1980s. Were there riots or rebellions or widespread crime of some sort attributable to illegal immigrants? If not, then what _were_ the negative effects of illegal immigration in the 1980s? What are the effects now? What was the negative result of Reagan granting amnesty? If there wasn’t one, doesn’t this suggest that illegal immigration is simply not that big of a deal? > [@](#): > > We should have 0 illegal immigrants here. That’s surely impossible, but that should be the goal. I support a tightly secured border, giving us the ability to close the spigot completely or open it and admit as many thousands or millions that serve our needs—legally! I support any community’s right to improve their community by making it difficult for people to reside there who shouldn’t be there in the first place. So, while I’m unable to answer your question in the way I think you were hoping, I hope that gives you an idea. The problem is no doubt at least three or four decades in the making. Personally, I’m of the opinion that a law that serves no purpose is useless and should be abolished. It’s a simple enough question - what is the purpose of existing immigration law and the new Arizona law? What problem is the law supposed to be addressing? It’s simply not enough to say “illegal is illegal” and I don’t get why you don’t seem to get that. By default, I would think, a government must _prove_ a law is necessary before imposing it, and if a law is too strict or unjust or serve no purpose, a citizen has the moral obligation to fight it. As for “serving our needs”, why not let the marketplace do that? If there are too many immigrants, wages will fall and the U.S. will be a less attractive market for their labour. I don’t think they go to the U.S. because of some romantic notions about American exceptionalism - they go where the work is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/133 "2010-04-25T07:03:44Z")
Just a personal note, no data offered. But a man who is willing to go and live like a fugitive for the chance to work his ass off, and about half a chance to be ripped off or otherwise fucked with, lives with 6 other guys in a motel room, scrapes by as best he can to send money to support a family he cannot even yell at… If thats the not the kind of man we want for a citizen, I’d like to know who is. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/134 "2010-04-25T07:43:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Personally, I’m of the opinion that a law that serves no purpose is useless and should be abolished. It’s a simple enough question - what is the purpose of existing immigration law and the new Arizona law? What problem is the law supposed to be addressing? It’s simply not enough to say “illegal is illegal” and I don’t get why you don’t seem to get that. By default, I would think, a government must _prove_ a law is necessary before imposing it, and if a law is too strict or unjust or serve no purpose, a citizen has the moral obligation to fight it. Thank you. I’ve always believed that one should fight unjust laws, too. So you’ve finally help me make a decision on this subject. I’ve been ambivalent for so long. I now have no problem with illegal immigrants. And will push for there to be a way for foreigners to get jobs here so they don’t have to do it illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/135 "2010-04-25T07:55:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If there are too many immigrants, wages will fall and the U.S. will be a less attractive market for their labour. Wages _have_ fallen, and this has hurt millions of working Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/136 "2010-04-25T12:36:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s unclear to me just how the verification of citizenship will go. > > It’s beyond cavil that, in connection with a legal stop, law enforcement may require you to identify yourself. This identification can include the requirement for you to truthfully provide your name and date of birth. Yes? Absolutely. That doesn’t prove I’m a citizen. Neither does a driver’s license or a social security card. (Hijack below.) In regards to the justification for a police stop, my understanding of the bill is that it makes reasonable suspicion on the part of a police officer that one is an illegal immigrant a primary offense. It’s unclear to me just how the definition of reasonable suspicion will go. That’s what worries me, and it should worry you as well. It opens the door for police to harass and annoy anybody, including you, including me. [hijack] > [@](#): > > It doesn’t seem outrageous for the police to ask for your social security number, although of course (so far as I know) there is no requirement for you to have one. A SSN is required to be claimed as a dependent on taxes, and for various other purposes. These days newborns have a SSN applied for before they’re even out of the hospital. I suppose there are some gaps through which people in special circumstances could fall, but for all intents and purposes, they are effectively required for U.S. citizens. But they’re also effectively required for most aliens, and they don’t prove citizenship. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/137 "2010-04-25T13:07:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. I suppose we’ll see. It seems to me that Arizona has the plenary police power to make it a separate crime to reside in Arizona without legal national residence, and do so without intruding on the separate Congressional power of regulating national immigration. They are not attempting to change or modify the national status; they are using that national status as the predicate factual basis for defining their own crime. > > But I concede your view is possible. > > It’s quite a distance from a slam-dunk, but I grant the possibility. Arizona does not have the power to make it a separate crime to reside in Arizona without legal national residence. There may be other ways in which the law could survive constitutional review, but that ain’t one of them. I’m not gonna quote caselaw to you in the Pit, but if you wanna bring it to the GD thread, I’ll take you through it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/138 "2010-04-25T13:38:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Wages _have_ fallen, and this has hurt millions of working Americans. How many of those Americans do you actually like? How many foreigners do you like? Why do you care? ---
**Author:** ![gladtobeblazed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@gladtobeblazed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladtobeblazed)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/139 "2010-04-25T13:38:29Z")
What the fuck kind of name is “Arpaio” anyway? Sounds like a dirty fucking spic, dego wetback to me. Looking at pictures of this scumbag, well he looks like a dirty Mexican to me. He’s all swarthy, not at all like a decent white man. Has anyone seen his papers? Can I make a citizen’s arrest? Thank God for the second amendment, every law abiding citizen should resist with lethal force if law enforcement officials dare ask for proof of citizenship, that’s what our guns are for after all, resistance to tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/140 "2010-04-25T13:58:02Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > How many of those Americans do you actually like? How many foreigners do you like? These details being so germane to the topic, perhaps you could compose a “DO U LIKE?” list of every American and every immigrant, so that he may check “Y” or “N” for each one. See you when you get back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=8)