# Arizona is out of control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171 "2010-04-24T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/161 "2010-04-25T19:00:40Z")
Just to add some more. We have an economy with staggering unemployment and stagnant wages. It’s affecting those at the bottom the worst. Supporting a flood of illegal workers shouldn’t be a liberal idea. If the illegal workers were engineers and other white color workers instead of manual laborer, and McDonalds employees, and they were driving down your wages, the people on this board would be livid. But we have an H1B visa limit for those sorts of jobs. If not, engineers from India and China would be arriving by the planeload to accept jobs at lower wages than is being paid now. Unless we get our economy on track we won’t be able to afford to address important issues like UHC and AGW. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/162 "2010-04-25T19:01:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is this a civil code issue? I can’t really tell: > > Emphasis added. No. Civil penalties never have jail time associated with them. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/163 "2010-04-25T19:26:07Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > How many of those Americans do you actually like? How many foreigners do you like? Why do you care? 😕 It has nothing to do with who I like. I _care_ about wages in America because I, my children, and my country are better off when more of the country is more prosperous. > [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m not sure why cracking down on illegal immigrants doesn’t mean you shouldn’t also punish firms hiring them. It is even more important to go after the employers. I would say it is _much more_ important to go after American companies illegally employing illegal immigrants. An illegal immigrant who is stopped at the border, or caught and deported later, is easily and almost instantly replaced by another. There is not really any deterrent effect; the job the deportee had or would have had is now available to another illegal immigrant (the employer’s motivation for wanting an illegal immigrant for the position will remain the same). On the other hand, if several American business owners are sent to prison, real prison, for employing these people, I expect the demand for illegal immigrants will dry up significantly. If we were _really serious_ about reducing illegal immigration, that’s the way to do it. Much more cost-effective than border patrols and all the rest. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/164 "2010-04-25T20:13:12Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Purely out of curiosity, does anyone else find the term “illegal” (as a noun) tasteless? _[raises hand]_ The dehumanization inherent in the usage has bothered me since I first heard the term, nearly twenty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/165 "2010-04-25T20:18:28Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Well, like I said, you couldn’t really get away with it, since it’s more obvious. But at least it’s more honest. > > (And actually, I think one or another of these immigration threads had a hijack about whether or not they were criminals — the claim being no, since most of the ways of being in the US illegally are misdemeanours. Still, beats “illegal”.) Yes, it does beat “illegal.” But, to nitpick, “criminal” does not have to refer only to “felon”; if, as your prior post implies, you believe that correct use of the language is important in the discussion, it doesn’t seem quite fair for you to insist on other people being correct without demanding the same of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/166 "2010-04-25T20:37:59Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > For crying out loud, what do you think? I think all their property-factory, real estate, vehicles and bank accounts- should be seized. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/167 "2010-04-25T20:43:20Z")
That does have a certain immediate visceral appeal. But perhaps a six-month amnesty could be announced prior to full-scale implementation. Okay, a six-month full-scale implementation (to show we mean business), followed by a six-month amnesty, followed by permanent implementation. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/168 "2010-04-25T20:48:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _[raises hand]_ The dehumanization inherent in the usage has bothered me since I first heard the term, nearly twenty years ago. I can’t believe you used dehu_man_ization. Do you not think that women are important? Words have consequences, and when you refer to people as hu_mans_ it denies the role of women in society and makes them an afterthought. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/169 "2010-04-25T21:03:41Z")
Mods, I know we’re trying to limit the level of vulgarity with which we address one another, even in the Pit, so can you tell me if I’m allowed to invite someone to go piss up a rope? Need answer fast. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/170 "2010-04-25T21:44:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But, to nitpick, “criminal” does not have to refer only to “felon”; if, as your prior post implies, you believe that correct use of the language is important in the discussion, it doesn’t seem quite fair for you to insist on other people being correct without demanding the same of yourself. My mistake, fair enough. That said, correctness isn’t my concern so much as the use of slurs, or as you put it, dehumanization. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/171 "2010-04-25T21:56:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is this a civil code issue? It does appear from the language that any person who is subject to the civil penalty in (b) has also committed the misdemeanor(?) in (a). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/172 "2010-04-25T22:43:54Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Mods, I know we’re trying to limit the level of vulgarity with which we address one another, even in the Pit, so can you tell me if I’m allowed to invite someone to go piss up a rope? > > Need answer fast. > > 😃 It cannot have escaped your attention that only one gender is physically equipped to piss up a rope, without elaborate gymnastics. You might employ a less blatantly sexist trope, i.e., piss on a rope, or suggest that one indulge in a bit of non-partnered sexual congress. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/173 "2010-04-25T23:10:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed. [/QUOTE] I believe that refers to other crimes they might be charged with. Fraud, quite often - knowingly presenting false identification, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/174 "2010-04-25T23:14:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You might employ a less blatantly sexist trope, i.e., piss on a rope, or suggest that one indulge in a bit of non-partnered sexual congress. Wait . . . Does that mean I can’t call people a cunt? Even in GD? Oddly enough, I’m fairly certain I have not cussed once in this thread, and I just posted in the twin GD thread a post which contained “hell” twice, and “fucking” once. I may have things precisely bass-ackwards. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/175 "2010-04-25T23:14:44Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Wages _have_ fallen, and this has hurt millions of working Americans. And that’s a potential argument which I’d like to see expanded with facts and figures and whatnot. And it’s worth analyzing what would happen if this influx of labour was removed (or at least significantly reduced). Business closures? Higher prices? > [@magellan01](#): > > The single biggest problem with reagan granting amnesty is that it encouraged more illegals to come here. There were, ostensibly, under 3 million illegals here then. That has grown to anywhere from 12 - 20 million. His amnesty told illegals: just get there and wait, and you, too, will be granted amnesty. And that thinking has proven to be logical. First, Bush tried his Amnesty Light. And now Obama wants to similarly shirk his duty and do the same thing. And presumably the huge influx had drastically negative effects on America that you can easily point out to us, right? > [@](#): > > Any immigration policy should serve the needs of the host country. If they need more people, they can allow in more people. If they don’t, they can close the spigot some. The laws simply are the framework to allow that immigration to happen. A tightly controlled border allows them to know WHO they are letting in, and IF they should be let in. Even during the great waves of immigrants coming through Ellis Island, we knew who was coming in. We also were able to check them for diseases. And if we viewed them as a risk to the populace we sent them back This was done routinely. And this was during a period when we wanted increased immigration numbers. This sounds dangerously close to a centralized planned economy, comrade, but no matter. I figure your better solution is just to make the process of entering the country easier with heavily-computerized border stations that can run instant background checks and medical staff that can run a basic disease check. Better to let them in under minimal control than just willy-nilly, wot? > [@](#): > > The Arizona law seeks to address what the federal government has failed to do. Additionally, as a border state, they are entrenched in the most unsavory parts of illegal activity: human and drug trafficking. And the violence they can bring. Also, given the increased violence across the border (not to mention that we know there are groups that would love to sneak a dirty bomb into the U.S.) makes it imperative that SOMEONE talk a hard stance. Fear of a dirty bomb can be used to rationalize a great many restrictions, though. I’m not sure how entrenched Arizona actually is in immigrant-run crime, which is why I’d like some statistics. > [@](#): > > Problems? How about the strain they put on hospital via emergency room visits. Hospitals in the south west have closed due, in part, to this added stress. And that leaves out the treatment citizens—who pay for it—wind up receiving. > > How about schools? Since we allow the children of illegals to attend our schools, the percentage of speakers other than English is increased. This adds to the cost of education, makes for more crowded classrooms, and slows up the class because a larger percent of them can’t keep up. Yes, they can be removed to their own classes, but then you simply have increase and increased cost that taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for. I’ll accept for the sake of argument that these problems exist - I’m just asking for actual numbers. Do you (or anyone) know of a link to something written by an Arizona hospital administrator or school principal on the issue? > [@](#): > > I’d love for the marketplace to set the wages and the need for more workers. (Which, by the way, can be solved by increasing immigration or having a guest-worker program, like Canada.) First, there’s the nonsense that “illegals are just doing work Americans don’t want to do”. And that is simply bullshit. What is true is that Americans don’t want to do those jobs _for the same wages_ that illegals are willing to do them. Illegals might be willing to Job A for $X, but Americans won’t. But an American might be willing to do it for 1.5, 2.0, or 3.0 X. I fail to see the distinction between not wanting to do a job and not wanting to do a job for low wages. Heck, there are any number of jobs I’d do for HIGH wages, but not otherwise. > [@](#): > > THAT would be letting the market set the need. And who do you think gets hurt the most when you allow in a workforce willing to work below market wages? For the jobs we’re talking about it’s those on the bottom rungs of the economic scale. One group that has traditionally done well in times of low worker supply in America is Blacks. Subsequently, they have been harmed the most while illegals come in a take jobs. Numbers? > [@](#): > > Think about it, why do employers hire illegals? Because it’s more profitable to do so. That means that an American worker loses out on a job every time an illegal is employed. And given the Unemployment Rate we now have, do you really think its a good idea to have more non-citizens taking jobs form Americans who need them so desperately? By this reasoning, why not put maximums on corporate profits? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/176 "2010-04-25T23:37:45Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Wait . . . Does that mean I can’t call people a cunt? Even in GD? > > Oddly enough, I’m fairly certain I have not cussed once in this thread, and I just posted in the twin GD thread a post which contained “hell” twice, and “fucking” once. I may have things precisely bass-ackwards. In situations like this, we testosterone-impaired should avail ourselves of the advice and wisdom of the nearest or dearest incarnation of the Goddess. I have found that such advice is readily available and is often offered without any solicitation, so eager are they to generously assist in our self-improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/177 "2010-04-26T02:50:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > ::spit take:: You don’t know the MCSO, buddy. > > So when (notice I don’t say “if”) this law is shown to have been grossly abused, you’ll come out against it? If this law is grossly abused, at the very least I’ll come out in favor of modifying guidelines so that the abuses are curbed. If the nature of the abuses makes guidelines an unlikely cure – for example, if the abuses are the result of agencies ignoring guidelines already extant – then I’ll come out against it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/178 "2010-04-26T02:53:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This should be enough to ensure your objection, all by itself. If the backers of this legislation were concerned at all about possible abuse of the law, they’d have included specific language regarding what constitutes valid proof of citizenship. > > Stop being a lawyer for a moment, and be a person. Then tell me you don’t find the law problematic. As a person of Hispanic origin, I repeat: I don’t know. It’s not necessary for the law to lay out specifics. For example, a Terry stop has reasonably specific guidelines, and they did not raise for legislation, did they? Yet is the whole structure of a Terry stop unworkable? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/179 "2010-04-26T02:54:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I didn’t read the law, but from the NYT article I read it suggests that they can just stop you based on a subjective assessment without another reason to stop you: > [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html) > > From that it seems that you could just look a little too brown and they can hassle you. Maybe you should read the actual law before continuing to share your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171/180 "2010-04-26T02:55:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes. It does not have to be in conjunction with any other stop. “Suspicion” that you are in the US illegally (i.e. observing that an individual has brown skin) is grounds, in itself, for stopping someone and demanding to see their papers. What section of the law says that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-is-out-of-control/537171.md?page=10)