# Arizona Voter ID law upheld by Ninth Cir **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302 "2012-04-19T18:07:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/181 "2012-04-23T23:28:34Z")
> [@Saint Cad](#): > > As challenged before, that statement is BS unless you can show us how many people cannot afford the ID required by their state to register or vote. I posted earlier about the disproportionate lack of African Americans without valid IDs in Arizona. As Ron Paul pointed out, only 5% of them vote for sane candidates, or something. Anyway, after reading the Civil Rights Act 1965, it appears that a discriminatory voting obstacle is fine as long as it doesn’t take the form of a test (as in, even showing that the intention is to prevent African Americans from voting isn’t sufficient). Anyone got an alternative interpretation? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/182 "2012-04-24T00:25:56Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I posted earlier about the disproportionate lack of African Americans without valid IDs in Arizona. Now show that the reason most of them don’t have valid IDs is because they can’t afford them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/183 "2012-04-24T01:01:41Z")
(banging head into desk in synch with the rhythm of “The Song of the Volga Boatmen”) It…doesn’t…matter…(moan)…why…they…are…exploiting…it…(groan)…anyway… What, you think they give a shit? If it were proven to them, beyond question, that the reason colored folks didn’t have ID as often as white folks was because of money, the would stop dead in their tracks? And say “Well, shit, if that’s the reason why, our scruples and principles will not permit us to go forward with this power grab. Never mind, forget it, some shit we just cannot do!” I don’t believe that, how about you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/184 "2012-04-24T01:07:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (banging head into desk in synch with the rhythm of “The Song of the Volga Boatmen”) > > It…doesn’t…matter…(moan)..why…they…are…exploiting…it…(groan)..anyway… > > What, you think they give a shit? If it were proven to them, beyond question, that the reason colored folks didn’t have ID as often as white folks was because of money, the would stop dead in their tracks? And say “Well, shit, if that’s the reason why, our scruples and principles will not permit us to go forward with this power grab. Never mind, forget it, some shit we just cannot do!” > > I don’t believe that, how about you? I am not them. I am me, and I give a shit. I have my own beliefs, but they are subject to change when new evidence comes in. Do you have any when it comes to why a significant portion of African Americans in Arizona don’t have valid IDs? Also, what would “a significant proportion” be? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/185 "2012-04-24T01:52:57Z")
Does it matter? Is there some condition of those people, willful or otherwise, that would render this effort to retard their rights somehow kosher? Because if there is no such condition, then no matter what the reason, this shit still stinks. Can you think of any plausible condition of those people that would make restricting their rights to be all over hunky-dory? I sure can’t. And, if no such condition is plausible, your question is nothing more than a mildly interesting diversion from the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/186 "2012-04-24T02:40:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does it matter? Is there some condition of those people, willful or otherwise, that would render this effort to retard their rights somehow kosher? Because if there is no such condition, then no matter what the reason, this shit still stinks. > > Can you think of any plausible condition of those people that would make restricting their rights to be all over hunky-dory? I sure can’t. And, if no such condition is plausible, your question is nothing more than a mildly interesting diversion from the topic at hand. So now explain why Democrat-controlled states are not repealing voter ID laws. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/187 "2012-04-24T02:48:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does it matter? Is there some condition of those people, willful or otherwise, that would render this effort to retard their rights somehow kosher? Because if there is no such condition, then no matter what the reason, this shit still stinks. > > Can you think of any plausible condition of those people that would make restricting their rights to be all over hunky-dory? I sure can’t. And, if no such condition is plausible, your question is nothing more than a mildly interesting diversion from the topic at hand. What the hell happened in Arizona and why the hell it happened _is_ the topic at hand, but I think your posts and those of a couple of others in this thread have shown us exactly what went wrong. Saying that the facts don’t matter, statistics don’t matter, the constitutionality of the law doesn’t matter and whether illegal aliens should get to vote doesn’t matter makes it so damn easy for Republicans to pass laws like this. You don’t get to call the other side “liars” if you are too damn lazy to present a fact-based “truth” to counter their arguments. “It doesn’t matter what I do, they’ll only(fill in the blank)” is nothing more than a weak excuse to do nothing but bitch. At least I bothered to try to come up with some ideas to counter Republican measures when requested by one of you…and all _that_ got me was even more insults, without one damn comment about my suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/188 "2012-04-24T03:34:20Z")
So the failure of the left in America to defeat this clusterfuck is all because of the way I argue on a message board? Do I get all the credit if we win? Seems only fair. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/189 "2012-04-24T03:37:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So the failure of the left in America to defeat this clusterfuck is all because of the way I argue on a message board? Do I get all the credit if we win? Seems only fair. Do you care to discuss what can be done to turn the tide? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/190 "2012-04-24T03:48:53Z")
Knock yourself out. Say something interesting, I may comment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/191 "2012-04-24T03:57:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Knock yourself out. Say something interesting, I may comment. How about some of the ideas in post #132? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/192 "2012-04-24T04:15:59Z")
Oh, I read it all right. Get out the vote. Political advertising. Have you offered this bold and innovative strategy to the Democrat leadership? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/193 "2012-04-24T04:21:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I read it all right. Get out the vote. Political advertising. Have you offered this bold and innovative strategy to the Democrat leadership? That’s hardly all that I posted, but just the same..what have _you_ got idea-wise that’s better? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/194 "2012-04-24T05:01:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I read it all right. Get out the vote. Political advertising. Have you offered this bold and innovative strategy to the Democrat leadership? How about writing to the Democrat leadership in the states and having them repeal the laws? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/195 "2012-04-24T05:48:04Z")
Yeah, with the Republican base thoroughly convinced that the Democratic Party opposes these laws because Democrats only win elections by voter fraud. The smart thing to do, just before a Presidential election, is starting a grassroots movement to repeal these ID laws. Some of us are familiar with briar patches, tar babies, and Uncle Remus. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/196 "2012-04-24T11:13:52Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Yeah, with the Republican base thoroughly convinced that the Democratic Party opposes these laws because Democrats only win elections by voter fraud. The smart thing to do, just before a Presidential election, is starting a grassroots movement to repeal these ID laws. > > Some of us are familiar with briar patches, tar babies, and Uncle Remus. > > CMC fnord! There _is_ the “Larger Picture Problem”, isn’t there? Without a significant public demand for such an action beforehand, any move by the Democrats to overturn such laws will definitely backfire. That is why we need _hard_ evidence that the Arizona law(and others of the same ilk) are preventing citizens from voting as a solid base for such a campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/197 "2012-04-24T13:55:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > After you come in and shit all over the thread, you don’t get to change the thread to talk about what you want to talk about. This thread is not about your desire to tell everyone they are stupid and then start your own political acitivism campaign > > Until you apologize for your posts, there’s no point in talking to you. Knock it off, **BigT**. This is junior moderating and your commentary is more appropriate for the Pit than Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/198 "2012-04-24T16:40:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There _is_ the “Larger Picture Problem”, isn’t there? Without a significant public demand for such an action beforehand, any move by the Democrats to overturn such laws will definitely backfire. That is why we need _hard_ evidence that the Arizona law(and others of the same ilk) are preventing citizens from voting as a solid base for such a campaign. So does this mean that finally SOMEBODY will give us stats of how many Americans cannot get an ID because of financial/physical hardship as opposed to what we have been getting in this thread which is a nebulous number somewhere between “A lot” and “metric buttload”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/199 "2012-04-24T16:57:00Z")
Why would you expect that? Where would you get such data, how would you structure such an inquiry? Where would you even begin? Why would it even matter? If one political party uses its legislative power to make voting more troublesome and inconvenient for likely voters for the other party, but such hassles don’t rise to a level you find onerous, does that make it OK? How about if they are just lazy? Can we say “This legislation will adversely affect people of less economic status, but only if they are lazy, so that’s OK?” My answer would be no, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/200 "2012-04-24T17:14:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So does this mean that finally SOMEBODY will give us stats of how many Americans cannot get an ID because of financial/physical hardship as opposed to what we have been getting in this thread which is a nebulous number somewhere between “A lot” and “metric buttload”? If such information isn’t available, or if Democrats don’t even bother to find out if such information exists, vague claims that such laws have caused dropoffs in Democratic votes will be met with derision. If the Right goes through the effort(and believe me, they will) of gathering statistics and they differ in any way from the vague claims made so far, our ass is grass. I hope to ghod that: 1. Someone on the Left tries to find some solid stats and 2. A solid campaign _based on those stats_ is developed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=11)