# Arizona Voter ID law upheld by Ninth Cir **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302 "2012-04-19T18:07:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/61 "2012-04-20T18:08:32Z")
Step one: bitch! Loud and long, repeat as necessary. Used to do it in person, sit down next to somebody on the bus, say, and start in. Now I’ve got the intertubes, and a web site that connects to the smartest, hippest people on the planet. Old way, only get to a couple of people at a time, this way, I can connect to five, six people on any given day! Progress! Also, here I can reach out to conservatives of conscience, who reject and condemn this sort of pious chicanery. Sometime, I’ve found both of them to be in agreement with me! Only connect. But they got a real doozy here, beautifully framed in pious bullshit about “integrity” and “voter confidence”. But, hey! after all, we can mount a voter registration drive and…oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/62 "2012-04-20T18:16:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Tell you what, **Ibn**. You look me right in the monitor and tell me you think the motives behind this are one hundred percent legit, the Republicans who are pressing for this all across the country…are solely and strictly concerned with integrity at the voting place, and I’ll believe you. Why can’t this be both an effort to increase election integrity and also an effort to stop Democrats from voting? If the Democrats are cheating, isn’t it honorable to stop them from continuing their shenanigans? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/63 "2012-04-20T18:25:50Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I find this quote, attributed to Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, in many places including [here](http://rightwingnews.com/uncategorized/an-interview-with-john-fund-on-election-fraud/) > > I find similar sentiments repeated endlessly in right-ish commentary, from arguably more credible sources down the spectrum to such as John Fund (“Stealing Elections, Revised and Updated: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy”) and further down to such as James O’Keefe. I believe that such statements misrepresent the reality of voter impersonation fraud, and seek only to inflame fear about it. I observe that most discussions by conservatives of voter ID laws and proposals focus on some variation of the above sky-is-falling or about-to fall belief. Further, I note that there is no parallel vigorous call to strengthen the absentee ballot system lest disaster ensue, despite the fact that it is clearly a more fruitful avenue for actual voter fraud. I conclude from this that ‘most’ conservatives have not actually examined the actual extent, not the hyper-inflated “possibility”, of voter impersonation fraud and are supportive of ID requirements merely because they accept the glurge their leadership feeds them. > > YMMV. I do not believe that rigor infuses your methodology. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/64 "2012-04-20T18:27:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Why can’t this be both an effort to increase election integrity and also an effort to stop Democrats from voting? If the Democrats are cheating, isn’t it honorable to stop them from continuing their shenanigans? Where is there evidence or even implication that Democrats are “cheating”? Unless by cheating you mean registering people who are poor, and/or young, and/or brown? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/65 "2012-04-20T18:30:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I do not believe that rigor infuses your methodology. Rigorous methodology is not required to prove the glaringly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/66 "2012-04-20T18:30:45Z")
I’d be more okay with a purple finger or a registry of fingerprints or something. What is I lose or have my wallet stolen the day before the election? Or regarding bills, what happen to my wife, who carries a different last name which doesn’t appear on the bills? Too many pitfalls not even getting into the disenfranchising argument. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/67 "2012-04-20T18:31:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do not believe that rigor infuses your methodology. You are correct. There is nothing rigorous about my reliance on such as \*\*elucidator’s \*\*cites in Post 59. So sorry to have been a bother. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/68 "2012-04-20T18:38:17Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Why can’t this be both an effort to increase election integrity and also an effort to stop Democrats from voting? If the Democrats are cheating, isn’t it honorable to stop them from continuing their shenanigans? What is there that “the Democrats” are “cheating”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/69 "2012-04-20T18:42:19Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > You are correct. There is nothing rigorous about my reliance on such as \*\*elucidator’s \*\*cites in Post 59. So sorry to have been a bother. He has proven, to his complete satisfaction, that this is legal and Constitutional. Questions like “justice” are for lesser minds, like mine own. But don’t worry. We’re right, he’s smart, sooner or later, he’s ours. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/70 "2012-04-20T18:56:31Z")
Hey, I just found out something! ALEC, the _greasy eminence_ behind this turd festival, has bailed on this whole “voter ID” thing. Bit late, sure, but there you have it. According to our good friends at _Talking Points Memo_, without which no citizen can hope to be well-informed, the slack has been taken up my another forthright conservative group, one with close ties to such beloved conservative icons as Tom DeLay (R-Undead) and Jack “Cough” Abramoff. [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/alec\_voter\_id\_national\_center\_for\_public\_policy\_research.php?ref=fpblg](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/04/alec_voter_id_national_center_for_public_policy_research.php?ref=fpblg) ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/71 "2012-04-20T18:59:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He has proven, to his complete satisfaction, that this is legal and Constitutional. Questions like “justice” are for lesser minds, like mine own. > > But don’t worry. We’re right, he’s smart, sooner or later, he’s ours. I agree that it is Constitutional, and legal, (if free and freely obtainable) and the totality of its effects are unjust, so we are ‘right’. I also agree that \*\*Bricker’s \*\*smart. I truly hope you are also correct in your prediction. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/72 "2012-04-20T19:07:02Z")
From your lips to the Ears… ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/73 "2012-04-20T19:11:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > From your lips to the Ears… Now you sound like my bubbe. ---
**Author:** ![SailorHG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SailorHG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SailorHG)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/74 "2012-04-21T09:21:15Z")
I am a little late to this party, but I have a real question that I have not yet seen raised about this topic: I understood that most states already require ID to purchase tobacco/alcohol, at least for people under age 30. And I also believe, though it may be a bit snobbish of me, that the poor already spend a significant percentage of their income on such things. (No cites, just personal experience/opinion, and I would be happy to be proved wrong.) If so, then how are they being disenfranchised to also be required to show ID at the polling station? Most of them already have one, and probably even use it regularly. Even for older voters who aren’t “carded” any longer, I would think an expired ID would serve to prove who they are. Is this whole debate really even an issue? Corrections and alternate viewpoints are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/75 "2012-04-21T09:28:40Z")
> [@SailorHG](#): > > Is this whole debate really even an issue? According to this article from the thread Bricker and I linked: > [@The Prospect](#): > > 23 percent of people over 65 do not have a valid ID > > ``` > only 45 percent of African American men and 51 percent of African American women have valid ID; > > 54 percent of Hispanic men and 41 percent of Hispanic women have a valid driver's license; and > > 47 percent of Milwaukee County's African American adults and 43 percent of the county's Hispanic adults have a valid driver's license. > > ``` Referring to those in Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/76 "2012-04-21T09:44:30Z")
Given that there is no evidence that voter impersonation at the polls is a common or even uncommon method of voter fraud, but absentee voting and election official fraud is frighteningly common, the fact that we’re even spending any time on voter id issues instead of actually addressing real problems is what irritates me. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/77 "2012-04-21T13:45:10Z")
> [@SailorHG](#): > > I am a little late to this party, but I have a real question that I have not yet seen raised about this topic: > > I understood that most states already require ID to purchase tobacco/alcohol, at least for people under age 30. And I also believe, though it may be a bit snobbish of me, that the poor already spend a significant percentage of their income on such things. (No cites, just personal experience/opinion, and I would be happy to be proved wrong.) > > If so, then how are they being disenfranchised to also be required to show ID at the polling station? Most of them already have one, and probably even use it regularly. > > Even for older voters who aren’t “carded” any longer, I would think an expired ID would serve to prove who they are. > > Is this whole debate really even an issue? > > Corrections and alternate viewpoints are welcome. You don’t have a constitutional right to buy liquor or cigarettes. You do have a constitutional right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/78 "2012-04-21T13:48:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You don’t have a constitutional right to buy liquor or cigarettes. You do have a constitutional right to vote. All _citizens_ have a constitutional right to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/79 "2012-04-21T13:50:42Z")
Being upset when Republicans are clever is a reaction. Being cleverer is a solution. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/80 "2012-04-21T14:09:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can agree with this ruling. Asking for ID to register to vote seems like a no brainer as long as the state is willing to pay for it for people who can’t afford one. One can argue about the wisdom of such laws, but the constitutionality seems pretty obvious. Aren’t there plenty of well-funded groups that can do that? I know they’d rather use their funding to influence elections in other ways but still. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=5)