# Arizona Voter ID law upheld by Ninth Cir **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302 "2012-04-19T18:07:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/121 "2012-04-22T13:31:50Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Birth certificate along with drivers license or other photo ID would satisfy me. You actually ask for _more_ than Arizona does. What are you complaining about, again? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/122 "2012-04-22T13:35:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You actually ask for _more_ than Arizona does. > What are you complaining about, again? Go back to the first post I replied to. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/123 "2012-04-22T13:37:53Z")
> [@grude](#): > > For a voter who has trouble acquiring a state ID? So why do they have a problem acquiring a state ID? > [@](#): > > Yea probably, it costs $100 USD right off the bat Ah. That’s a non-trivial sum. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/124 "2012-04-22T13:38:53Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by Czarcasm Did you read post #114, and if so, are those standards too high for you? By the way, I didn’t ask for any sort of absolute “proof”-I asked what your minimum standards would be to let someone vote. > [@grude](#): > > Birth certificate along with drivers license or other photo ID would satisfy me. So **grude** , you want to **raise** the bar to vote (not register) by setting the minimum standards as “Birth certificate along with drivers license or other photo ID would satisfy me.” Fine by me, a certified copy of my birth certificate and my drivers license are within 20 feet of me at this moment. The challenged but upheld AZ requirements to receive a ballot are much less stringent: [Proof of Identification at the Polls](http://www.azsos.gov/election/Prop_200/poll_identification.htm%22) Every qualified elector is required to show proof of identity at the polling place before receiving a ballot. The elector shall announce his/her name and place of residence or present the elector’s name and residence in writing to the election official. The elector shall present acceptable identification that: 1. Bears the name, address, and photograph of the elector (See List 1), or 2. Two different forms of identification that bear the name and address of the elector (See List 2), or 3. One form of acceptable photo identification with one form of non-photo identification that bears the name and address of the elector (See List 3) List 1 - Acceptable forms of identification with photograph, name, and address of the elector • Valid Arizona driver license • Valid Arizona non-operating identification license • Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification • Valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification An identification is “valid” unless it can be determined on its face that it has expired. List 2 - Acceptable forms of identification without a photograph that bear the name and address of the elector (two required) • Utility bill of the elector that is dated within 90 days of the date of the election. A utility bill may be for electric, gas, water, solid waste, sewer, telephone, cellular phone, or cable television • Bank or credit union statement that is dated within 90 days of the date of the election • Valid Arizona Vehicle Registration • Indian census card • Property tax statement of the elector’s residence • Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification • Arizona vehicle insurance card • Recorder’s Certificate • Valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification, including a voter registration card issued by the County Recorder • Any mailing to the elector marked “Official Election Material” An identification is “valid” unless it can be determined on its face that it has expired. List 3 - Acceptable forms of identification, one identification with name and photo of the elector accompanied by one non-photo identification with name and address • Any valid photo identification from List 1 in which the address does not reasonably match the precinct register accompanied by a non-photo identification from List 2 in which the address does reasonably match the precinct register • U.S. Passport without address and one valid item from List 2 • U.S. Military identification without address and one valid item from List 2 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/125 "2012-04-22T16:06:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As a foreigner, I really don’t understand this. Is acquiring a passport really that big of a problem? Only about 10% of all Americans have passports and they’re fairly expensive. Most Americans don’t carry documents to prove that they are citizens. That’s one reason why so many people were upset about Arizona’s “Papers Please” law from a few years ago. Also, I don’t think any states require proof of citizenship when voting though some may do so when registering to vote. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/126 "2012-04-22T16:27:38Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As a foreigner, I really don’t understand this. Is acquiring a passport really that big of a problem? The more direct issue is that the Constitution prohibits poll taxes, IOW a payment required for the act of voting. An ID law would have to allow ID that is provided at no cost to the voter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/127 "2012-04-22T16:37:10Z")
Will anybody here who sincerely believes that the sole Republican motivation for this clusterfuck is to ensure the integrity of the voter rolls please forward me your e-mail address? I have a friend in Nigeria with some _excellent_ business prospects to offer! And Republican efforts, as cited above, to hamper new voter registration drives? Simply an amazing coincidence, do you think? Come to think on it, aren’t people in an enhanced financial position much better equipped to obtain fake ID? Well, why not investigate, why not a law demanding that higher-income voters re-register with rock-solid vetting for their identification? True, this might have the effect of lowering Republican voter participation, but that’s just a coincidence and hey! it’s all about the _integrity_ of our voter rolls, our confidence in our elections! Of course its legitimate to ensure the integrity of our voter rolls. But to exploit that legitimacy in order to advantage one political party over another is _not_ legitimate. Is that so hard to grasp? Could a voter id program be mounted that did not disadvantage a political party? I imagine so, can think of several scenarios. Anyone see any Republican coming forth with such a plan, to ensure the “integrity” of our voter rolls without partisan advantage? Any one? Any where? Cue the crickets. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/128 "2012-04-22T17:25:42Z")
[http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/21/us-usa-election-voters-idUSBRE83K07O20120421](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/21/us-usa-election-voters-idUSBRE83K07O20120421) > [@](#): > > New state laws designed to fight voter fraud could reduce the number of Americans signing up to vote in this year’s presidential election by hundreds of thousands, a potential problem for President Barack Obama’s re-election bid. > > Voting laws passed by Republican-led legislatures in a dozen states during the past year have sharply restricted voter-registration drives that typically target young, low-income, African-American and Hispanic voters - groups that have backed the Democratic president by wide margins. > > A further 16 states are considering bills that would end voter registration on election days, impose a range of limits on groups that register voters and make it more difficult for people to sign up, according to the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University Law School… I’d cut and paste the whole damn thing if they’d let me, but read it. Love that first sentence, its a treasure of non-partisanship. "Designed to fight voter fraud…', indeed. Yes. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/129 "2012-04-22T18:25:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [New curbs on voter registration could hurt Obama | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/21/us-usa-election-voters-idUSBRE83K07O20120421) > > I’d cut and paste the whole damn thing if they’d let me, but read it. Love that first sentence, its a treasure of non-partisanship. "Designed to fight voter fraud…', indeed. Yes. Quite. Yes-for the umpteenth time we get the message. The Republicans have figured out a legal means to get ahead in the game. _Now what, besides whining, do you want to do about it?_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/130 "2012-04-22T18:57:05Z")
Outside of hitting you with a rolled up newspaper and yelling “Bad, **Czarcasm** , bad! Go lay down by your water dish!”? Hang a few, to encourage the others? Second amendment solutions? Dunno. Have you got something? Doesn’t look like embarrassing them is going to do it, point out the truth, they just repeat the lies. And, as you no doubt have noticed, there’s a bunch of people willing to believe it. Overwhelm them with the power of truth and justice? Taking a lot longer than we hoped, we could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do… And “whining”? Isn’t that kind of spinola beneath you? And if not, shouldn’t it be? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/131 "2012-04-22T19:06:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Now what, besides whining, do you want to do about it?_ Do _you_ have any ideas, other than simple resignation combined with deriding those who \*do \*recognize the problem? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/132 "2012-04-22T19:59:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do _you_ have any ideas, other than simple resignation combined with deriding those who \*do \*recognize the problem? :dubious: A well-organized and coordinated “get out the vote” campaign, for one. Target the audience and speak to their particular needs. Blanket campaigns on how easy and cheap it is to get IDs. An ad campaign making voting something to be proud of. Stop wasting time and resources bitching about “fair” and “unfair”, especially if what was done is ruled to be legal. There is nothing immoral about using saturation campaigns to convince people of a point, so use the same techniques. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/133 "2012-04-22T20:26:58Z")
Sure, OK, except maybe for that “well organized” part. Say what you will about the Forces of Darkness, when it comes to finances and organization, they are the tits. Our team, not so much. But, excuse please, what’s wrong with telling the truth? And from whence your presumption that “whining” is all we are prepared to do? Isn’t that more along the lines of a personal attack than a insight into the conversation? Was that a form of concession: “Yeah, you guys are right, but you still suck!”? It would be easy to solve the problem, except for the fact that there isn’t one. How do we solve the problem of unicorn stampedes? Proposing an honest and fair solution isn’t going to count for much if the men with the power have no interest in an honest and fair solution. Most especially since an honest and fair solution might well mean they _lose_ that power. See many Republicans jumping on that bandwagon? See even one? Still, its good to know you’re on our team with this! Sorta. Kinda. And if you don’t want to whine, well, that’s OK, too, we can be very open-minded about that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/134 "2012-04-22T20:35:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The more direct issue is that the Constitution prohibits poll taxes, IOW a payment required for the act of voting. Hmm.. over here, the poll tax / community charge was a tax on those who had a right to vote; you didn’t actually pay to vote. (A subtle difference, I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/135 "2012-04-22T20:42:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure, OK, except maybe for that “well organized” part. Say what you will about the Forces of Darkness, when it comes to finances and organization, they are the tits. Our team, not so much. > > But, excuse please, what’s wrong with telling the truth? And from whence your presumption that “whining” is all we are prepared to do? Isn’t that more along the lines of a personal attack than a insight into the conversation? Was that a form of concession: “Yeah, you guys are right, but you still suck!”? > > It would be easy to solve the problem, except for the fact that there isn’t one. How do we solve the problem of unicorn stampedes? Proposing an honest and fair solution isn’t going to count for much if the men with the power have no interest in an honest and fair solution. Most especially since an honest and fair solution might well mean they _lose_ that power. See many Republicans jumping on that bandwagon? See even one? > > Still, its good to know you’re on our team with this! Sorta. Kinda. And if you don’t want to whine, well, that’s OK, too, we can be very open-minded about that sort of thing. “Honest and fair!” is great..on a bumper sticker. If you want to actually _win_ once in a while, you look at the law as it now stands and do all that you can within the letter of the law. If that isn’t enough, do what you can to get that law changed. Time and effort are valuable resources that shouldn’t be squandered. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/136 "2012-04-22T21:24:14Z")
I am. This is it, talking to you. And if that isn’t good enough for you, its a damn sight better than those who use it to spread lies, hopelessness, and apathy. Besides, how the fuck do you know what I do, or don’t do? Hell, there’s twenty four hours in a day, take out time whining on the Board, that still leaves two! I’ve worked some volunteer stuff, voter drives, that sort of thing. Trouble is, it brings me into contact with whole herds of bland but earnest liberals, and I can’t stand them. Two hours exposure, and I want to raise the Jolly Roger and start slitting throats. And that’s not their fault, it’s mine, but there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/137 "2012-04-22T21:58:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A well-organized and coordinated “get out the vote” campaign, for one. Target the audience and speak to their particular needs. Blanket campaigns on how easy and cheap it is to get IDs. An ad campaign making voting something to be proud of. It certainly does not to be asked if you’re actually \*doing \*any of the above yourself, and not simply whining on a message board \*about \*people whining on message boards. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/138 "2012-04-22T22:08:51Z")
How many times have ballots been investigated to see if there were votes by illegals or others not allowed to vote? I know of one, when Loretta Sanchez beat B1-Bob Dornan in California. From the great Wikipedia source: > **[Bob Dornan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dornan)** > > Robert Kenneth Dornan (born April 3, 1933) is an American actor, radio talk show host, combat veteran, and Republican politician from California. Dornan represented two Southern California districts in the United States House of Representatives from 1977 to 1983 and from 1985 to 1997, where he became known as a "leading firebrand" on the party's conservative wing. He unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for the United States Senate in 1982 and for President of the United States in 1996... > [@](#): > > Following the narrow defeat, Dornan alleged that Sanchez’s winning margin was provided by illegal voting from non-U.S. citizens. A thirteen-month House of Representatives investigation ensued, during which Sanchez was seated provisionally, pending the inquiry.[15] A task force found 748 votes that had been cast illegally—624 from non-citizens in addition to 124 that had already been thrown out by California officials. This was not enough to overturn Sanchez’ margin of victory and she was allowed to keep her seat.[16] However, in consultation with the INS, the House committee identified as many as 4,700 questionable registration affidavits.[17] The probe was dropped before these affidavits could be investigated. 624 illegal ballots from non-citizens. That is NOT trivial. Now, why the House Republicans abandoned Dornan to his fate is another debate (and I have no idea why they left him, other than he was embarrassing even to the Republican side in those days). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/139 "2012-04-22T22:10:38Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Hmm.. over here, the poll tax / community charge was a tax on those who had a right to vote; you didn’t actually pay to vote. (A subtle difference, I know.) Not that subtle in practice. Here, it was a tool of Jim Crow, used to limit or prevent voting by blacks in the South. That history largely fuels the outrage of those of us who see the current “reasonable proposals” to end a non-existent problem as a new incarnation of them. Both are assaults on democratic principles. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/140 "2012-04-22T22:48:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It certainly does not to be asked if you’re actually \*doing \*any of the above yourself, and not simply whining on a message board \*about \*people whining on message boards. Does it? I am asked what kind of solutions there might be, I present some, and instead of discussing whether they are viable or not(the logical next step in this conversation) you want to divert the conversation to my personal habits. [Diversion Break]Every election I volunteer for a number of “Get Out The Vote” phone banks, and I have gone door-to-door for the same. I now see the need for a larger organized general campaign.[/Diversion Break] Now, would you like to discuss the ideas I was asked to come up with? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=8)