# Arizona Voter ID law upheld by Ninth Cir **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302 "2012-04-19T18:07:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/141 "2012-04-23T00:54:37Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > How many times have ballots been investigated to see if there were votes by illegals or others not allowed to vote? I know of one, when Loretta Sanchez beat B1-Bob Dornan in California. From the great Wikipedia source: > [Bob Dornan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dornan) > 624 illegal ballots from non-citizens. That is NOT trivial. Now, why the House Republicans abandoned Dornan to his fate is another debate (and I have no idea why they left him, other than he was embarrassing even to the Republican side in those days). Wikipedia is a really shitty source. Do you have better one? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/142 "2012-04-23T00:55:37Z")
No, **Czarcasm** , the diversion into personal habits began with \*your \*dismissal of **elucidator** ’s motives and grip on reality. If your own are no better, or even not as good, as it seems you now acknowledge, then your discussion was not only a diversion from the topic but inappropriate in \*any \*topic. Now cut the shit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/143 "2012-04-23T01:06:59Z")
Oh, now, no big deal, he was just a mite testy. Its annoying to be on the losing end of an argument with a smart-ass. Well, I assume so, not having any actual experience… By the way, that wiki on Bob Dornan… > [@](#): > > …For his final successful run for Congress, Dornan had signs posted at polling places that warned voters in Spanish that they should be prepared to prove their citizenship in order to vote, suggesting that immigration officials would be present. The success of this action was believed to have kept enough Latino voters away from the polls to eke out a final victory for Dornan against Mike Farber in an election that featured allegations of domestic violence by Dornan.[4] A long court battle deemed these signs illegal and inappropriate, and he was not able to post them again at the next election, which he then lost to Loretta Sanchez… An “embarrassment” to the Republican Party? Yeah, and Krakatoa was loud. But yeah, I echo the sentiment for more citation. Because this is the first I’d heard. Not that surprised that it maybe happened, surprised that it hasn’t been shoved into my face at every opportunity. I mean, its got _everything_! Democrat skulduggery, illegal aliens, voter fraud, electrolytes… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/144 "2012-04-23T01:12:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Most Americans don’t carry documents to prove that they are citizens. That’s one reason why so many people were upset about Arizona’s “Papers Please” law from a few years ago. I do. It’s called a Colorado ID. Before that had one called an Arizona ID. OK, technically it’s a lawful presence identification. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/145 "2012-04-23T02:39:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I do. It’s called a Colorado ID. Before that had one called an Arizona ID. OK, technically it’s a lawful presence identification. So you have proof of citizenship that you carry, except technically it’s not proof of citizenship in any way? Some technicality. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/146 "2012-04-23T02:48:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wikipedia is a really shitty source. Do you have better one? You mean like the CNN article that was footnoted from Wikipedia? [http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq\_sanchez\_1\_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?\_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS](http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq_sanchez_1_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS) ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/147 "2012-04-23T02:49:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, now, no big deal, he was just a mite testy. Its annoying to be on the losing end of an argument with a smart-ass. Well, I assume so, not having any actual experience… > > By the way, that wiki on Bob Dornan… > > An “embarrassment” to the Republican Party? Yeah, and Krakatoa was loud. > > But yeah, I echo the sentiment for more citation. Because this is the first I’d heard. Not that surprised that it maybe happened, surprised that it hasn’t been shoved into my face at every opportunity. I mean, its got _everything_! Democrat skulduggery, illegal aliens, voter fraud, electrolytes… CNN: [http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq\_sanchez\_1\_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?\_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS](http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq_sanchez_1_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS) Or the New York Times? > **[Californian to Keep Seat Won From Nine-Term Congressman (Published 1998)](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/04/us/californian-to-keep-seat-won-from-nine-term-congressman.html?ref=robertkdornan)** > > House task force recommends against nullifying 1996 election in California of Loretta Sanchez, Democrat who defeated Rep Robert K Dornan by slim margin; says it cannot prove that there were enough illegal votes to overturn election; Sanchez hails... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/148 "2012-04-23T03:12:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, **Czarcasm** , the diversion into personal habits began with \*your \*dismissal of **elucidator** ’s motives and grip on reality. If your own are no better, or even not as good, as it seems you now acknowledge, then your discussion was not only a diversion from the topic but inappropriate in \*any \*topic. > > Now cut the shit. I did, in post #132. Any response to any of the suggestions I made? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/149 "2012-04-23T03:17:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It would be easy to solve the problem, except for the fact that there isn’t one. How do we solve the problem of unicorn stampedes? Proposing an honest and fair solution isn’t going to count for much if the men with the power have no interest in an honest and fair solution. Most especially since an honest and fair solution might well mean they _lose_ that power. See many Republicans jumping on that bandwagon? See even one? Again with the “honest and fair”. Was what they did legal? If not, pursue that angle. If so, then do as much as you possible can _legally_ to counteract them. They made some very smart moves, and either we have to counteract with even smarter moves, or we fail. Each and every time. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/150 "2012-04-23T04:04:32Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You mean like the CNN article that was footnoted from Wikipedia? > > [http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq\_sanchez\_1\_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?\_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS](http://articles.cnn.com/1998-02-13/politics/cq_sanchez_1_dornans-sanchez-illegal-votes?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS) The article which specifically says that Sanchez won fair and square? The article entitle “Proof of Illegal Voters Falls Short, Keeping Sanchez In Office”? Anyway, that says nothing about the fact that it is utterly moronic to declare wikipedia “a great source.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/151 "2012-04-23T05:53:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again with the “honest and fair”… And again, if need be. Over and over, if such is the case. And its damned important principle, as if I need to remind. When a legislature can use the power of the law to ensure themselves electoral advantage, how long before the Party finds you? > [@](#): > > …Was what they did legal?.. What is this fetish some of you guys have about “legal”? \*\* Bricker\*\* I sort of understand, he’s a… Oh, dear Og, is that it? Are you one of \*them? \* > [@](#): > > …If not, pursue that angle. If so, then do as much as you possible can _legally_ to counteract them. They made some very smart moves, and either we have to counteract with even smarter moves, or we fail. Each and every time. This must be the part where I gush with gratitude at your sternly avuncular advice, so valuable for an idealistic moonbat like myself. I really must advise, though, than I can be a bit snappish at times. If you reach to pat me on the head, you might be wanting to count your fingers when you withdraw your hand. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/152 "2012-04-23T14:41:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes-for the umpteenth time we get the message. The Republicans have figured out a legal means to get ahead in the game. > > _Now what, besides whining, do you want to do about it?_ Maybe his crew can tie it into the Republican War on Women. Here’s a real solution… maybe the bad guys would go away if there was a law to permanently ban from voting anyone who cast an illegal vote or facilitated the casting of one. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/153 "2012-04-23T14:49:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The article which specifically says that Sanchez won fair and square? > > The article entitle “Proof of Illegal Voters Falls Short, Keeping Sanchez In Office”? > > Anyway, that says nothing about the fact that it is utterly moronic to declare wikipedia “a great source.” Yes, the article that says that there were hundreds of confirmed illegal votes cast, and possible thousands. That article. As I posted earlier, this is the only election that I am aware of where all of the ballots were checked, and they found a pretty high number of illegally cast ballots. The reason I posted this is to counter the claims that there is no problem with illegally cast ballots, and to counter the oft-made claim that non-residents would dare risk their living status to vote illegally. As is shown by this one election, more than a handful of people are willing to do so. As for my wikipedia cite - you must have missed the sarcasm in my writing, for that I obviously missed a bit in communication. Next time, though, you might find it helpful to check the footnotes. They really do help. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/154 "2012-04-23T14:53:33Z")
“Never appeal to a man’s ‘better nature.’ He may not have one. Invoking his ‘self—interest’ gives you more leverage.”-Heinlein Could it be the Republicans are coming out ahead because their campaigns appeal to the self interest of their target audience? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/155 "2012-04-23T15:04:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Never appeal to a man’s ‘better nature.’ He may not have one. Invoking his ‘self—interest’ gives you more leverage.”-Heinlein > Could it be the Republicans are coming out ahead because their campaigns appeal to the self interest of their target audience? After you come in and shit all over the thread, you don’t get to change the thread to talk about what you want to talk about. This thread is not about your desire to tell everyone they are stupid and then start your own political acitivism campaign Until you apologize for your posts, there’s no point in talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/156 "2012-04-23T15:07:54Z")
Oh, and “illegal” voting doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Illegal aliens are people and they live here. Whoever wins the election will affect them as much or more than it will affect any of you. I’ve yet to see any non-bigoted reason why they shouldn’t get to vote that doesn’t fall apart under even the slightest bit of scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/157 "2012-04-23T15:12:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and “illegal” voting doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Illegal aliens are people and they live here. Whoever wins the election will affect them as much or more than it will affect any of you. I’ve yet to see any non-bigoted reason why they shouldn’t get to vote that doesn’t fall apart under even the slightest bit of scrutiny. Well, there you go. One good reason for voter ID laws! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/158 "2012-04-23T15:12:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and “illegal” voting doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Illegal aliens are people and they live here. Whoever wins the election will affect them as much or more than it will affect any of you. I’ve yet to see any non-bigoted reason why they shouldn’t get to vote that doesn’t fall apart under even the slightest bit of scrutiny. You might need to change the Constitution if you want anyone who happens to be present to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/159 "2012-04-23T15:25:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > After you come in and shit all over the thread, you don’t get to change the thread to talk about what you want to talk about. This thread is not about your desire to tell everyone they are stupid and then start your own political acitivism campaign > > Until you apologize for your posts, there’s no point in talking to you. 1. I never said everyone was stupid. 2. I never said _anyone_ was stupid. 3. ElvisL1ves asked me if I had any ideas to help the Democrats, and I responded in the very next post. 4. Unless a moderator tells me to go away, I will continue to participate in this conversation. 5. I don’t recognize your authority to demand apologies on behalf of all the other posters. If I owe _you_ an apology, tell me why. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302/160 "2012-04-23T15:28:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and “illegal” voting doesn’t bother me in the slightest. Illegal aliens are people and they live here. Whoever wins the election will affect them as much or more than it will affect any of you. I’ve yet to see any non-bigoted reason why they shouldn’t get to vote that doesn’t fall apart under even the slightest bit of scrutiny. Statement like the above are like manna to the Republicans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizona-voter-id-law-upheld-by-ninth-cir/619302.md?page=9)