# Arizona's immigration law - genius **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248 "2010-05-21T13:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/21 "2010-05-21T14:28:31Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > What queue? For most of the illegal immigrants, there’s no queue that they could join. For some, the queue may be many years long… Back when most of my ancestors came over, they just showed up at Ellis Island–or maybe Boston. They _did_ queue up–for minimal processing & physical exams. Since they were healthy, they got processed through pretty quickly & sent out to find work. Which they did. Some ancestors came a bit earlier–when it was even easier. (Of course, many Americans are descended from folks who met the boats. Or who came over chained up as “property.”) As you’ve noted, the process is now much longer & more expensive. I’ve known highly educated professionals needing to hire immigration lawyers. By the way, the Governor of Texas–hardly a “leftist”–has said the Arizona law would not work here. Apparently he’s got a few functioning brain cells. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/22 "2010-05-21T14:30:21Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I have to admit, I really don’t understand the vitriol this law is getting. > … > Don’t see the problem. This: > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Do you walk around with the ability to demonstrate your citizenship? I don’t. Brown people in Arizona will have to. > > That is the problem. Legal or illegal status isn’t. The umbrage with the law isn’t that people want to get all cuddly-wuddly with the illegals (or whatever you want to call them). It’s that there’s something repugnant and unAmerican (as in the Hollywood version of ‘American’) about \*citizens \*being asked to demonstrate citizenship because the look suspicious. This runs from the generalized principle-based loathing to merely whip out an ID to the nightmarish consequences of not having it on you for that day’s walk and what a night or two (or three or four) could mean to _a citizen_ of limited resources (financial, intelligence, social, etc.). ETA: oops. Didn’t refresh before reading/posting, so there were only two or three replies I was looking at. Sorry if this is redundant or better addressed upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/23 "2010-05-21T14:32:50Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Each country has a process, and as I understand it, each country is allotted “X” number of people to enter the US legally. Correct. Mexico’s allotment is _zero._ ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/24 "2010-05-21T14:35:09Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > In fact, in Germany, as in most European countries, everyone needs to carry an identification card, and the police can ask to see it at any time. Do you want this to be federal law in the U.S.? (And no, it couldn’t just be an Arizona law: you can’t stop people from New Mexico entering the state without ID.) I have no problem with this being a federal law. I don’t see this as an invasion of my privacy. I was born here, and have a right to be here. Providing this information once or twice in my lifetime would not cause me stress. It wouldn’t cause me stress if it were once a week. If I had nothing to hide, it wouldn’t be an issue. I show an ID to get a book at the library. So, if it turns out that there is a requirement for a federal ID, I’d be ok with it. Do you think that takes away your civil liberties in some way? gotta go for now. I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/25 "2010-05-21T14:47:40Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I have no problem with this being a federal law. I don’t see this as an invasion of my privacy. I was born here, and have a right to be here. Providing this information once or twice in my lifetime would not cause me stress. How about being subject to arrest for not having the card on you? Then would you be stressed? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/26 "2010-05-21T14:59:21Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I have no problem with this being a federal law. I don’t see this as an invasion of my privacy. I was born here, and have a right to be here. Providing this information once or twice in my lifetime would not cause me stress. > > It wouldn’t cause me stress if it were once a week. If I had nothing to hide, it wouldn’t be an issue. Just out of curiosity, what if they wanted to search you? If you have nothing to hide, is that okay? What about your car? You have nothing to hide, so that’s okay? Your house? How about if they could scan your brain? I’m just curious where it goes from being okay because you have nothing to hide to not okay because it’s an invasion of your privacy and your right to go about your life unharassed. There’s a line somewhere, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/27 "2010-05-21T15:04:39Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Although I agree with the premise of your POV, I’m afraid it’s a necessary step. I understand that people think it’s unfair, it’s profiling, etc. However, if a state is being over-run and/or brought to the brink of bankruptcy because it cannot pay for the services required by illegals (who let’s face it, are predominately Mexicans), there has to be some way of identifying those people. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But brown skinned people in Arizona who crossed into the US illegally and begin to use the services of this country (like health care… babies being born, emergencies, etc.) without any ability to pay is a problem that cannot go on forever. States are going bankrupt. This is a large expenditure, which cannot be ignored and would be better contained in some way. The border state taxpayer cannot carry the burden forever, so what do they do? Whine, whine, whine. We aren’t being being “burdened” by them, we are profiting off of them, exploiting them. This is classic blaming the victim; we use them as near-slaves, then demonize them so we don’t feel guilty about it. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But it’s a start, and my hope is that as a country we will have to finally deal with this problem. That includes going after those companies that employ illegals and pay poor wages with no benefits to improve their bottom lines. Except that we won’t, because the motive behind this is bigotry and nothing else. It’s not a serious attempt to deal with illegal immigration. The goal is to harass brown people, citizens as well as immigrants. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > The “real problem” is the steady stream of illegal immigrants crossing the border into the US without following the proper procedures, applying, and waiting their turn to enter legally. Which as said typically means never getting in at all. We don’t WANT brown skinned people coming here legally. We want them here illegally, because illegal immigrants are easier to exploit, more profitable. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > . I don’t think the Arizona law enforcement officials are going to be running around checking for papers. Of course they will, they’ll go around harassing anyone with brown skin. That’s the point. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > And no, they do not all pay income and SSDI tax. Sales tax yes, but if you are paying someone illegally under the table to cut your yard, you aren’t paying the federal taxes, state and local taxes that would be required, not to mention SSDI. That’s a problem that also needs to be addressed. I do not blame the illegal for not paying these taxes. Except that [they often DO](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&ei=5090&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ex=1270353600&partner=kmarx&pagewanted=all&position=) pay such taxes; without ever expecting any services in return. We suck billions of dollars out of them in return for nothing. Again, this is an example of blaming the victim. > [@](#): > > As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year. > > While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year’s surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration’s projections. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/28 "2010-05-21T15:12:39Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I didn’t know that. (license issue) Now that you know a drivers license isn’t proof of citizenship, let me ask you this question. You’re driving down the street in Tucson and get pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. As you’re exchanging papers with the police officer, you say, “It’s a hot day out today, eh?” The police officer suspects that you may be an illegal Canadian immigrant with a legally obtained drivers license. How do you prove your US citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/29 "2010-05-21T15:13:13Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I didn’t know that. (license issue) What? You didn’t know that foreigners can legally reside in the U.S.? Or am I just supposed to use my Australian driver’s license for 10 years or more? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/30 "2010-05-21T15:17:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Correct. Mexico’s allotment is _zero._ That is my understanding, as well. If you are Mexican have a citizen spouse in the US or are the minor child of a US citizen, you can get a visa, I think. Other relatives who are citizens in the US might put you in queue to get a visa after a certain number of years. You are never, as I understand it, able to join a lottery for visas. There are other countries for whom that is true as well. I think China is one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/31 "2010-05-21T15:22:52Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > If people are already willing to break the law to come into the US, why would a new law stop them? Are there enhanced criminal penalties in the Arizona law, or is it just faster deportation? Put me down for thinking this will not be much of a deterrent. For what it’s worth, we have a very similar law here in Prince William County. The results have been mixed. An [article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/06/AR2010050602382.html) in the WaPo, certainly no friend to laws like this, believes a combo of both our similar law and the economy probably drove out many of the immigrants from our county, both legal and illegal. Still, most people here wanted this law, if only for emotional/fairness/psychological reasons: > [@](#): > > “The effect of the policy was to send a strong message that Prince William County would not welcome illegal aliens, and that if you are an illegal alien, there’s a real good chance you’re going to be arrested and deported,” said [County Supervisor] Stewart." Clearly, [Arizona and US voters](http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2010/05/17/daily46.html) feel the same way, with a whopping 69% favoring checking immigration ‘papers’ (nice Nazi reference, give me a break) and/or a green card if they think the perp snuck in without signing the guest book. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/32 "2010-05-21T15:24:37Z")
I don’t believe this law is racist - but I’m sure that it is a favorite of racists. That being said, it seems clear to me that we need to make sure we know who’s coming and going, and I’m all for basically returning to the days of Ellis Island. Say, you give 90 days notice of intention to immigrate. Then on the 91st day, you line up at a handy border crossing station, confirm your identity and you’re good to go. Or not, depending on the results of the medical check, and the background/terror check performed by the US in the prior 90 day period. You get whatever ID/SSN you need, and you’re on your way to rock in the free world. If you’re a true “American” and you believe that all humans are entitled to the rights we’ve put in the Constitution, then I can’t see how you’d justify leaving out anyone else - after all, they’re humans, right? Who cares what country they were born in. There will be debates about immigrants receiving “too much” government support, but that is an issue with the support programs. And we believe all humans deserve X amount of support, no matter their country of origin, so that’s not an immigration problem. Some jerks will complain that America is getting “too ethnic” - too bad, racist. Some people will worry about new immigrants getting taken advantage of - that is a problem with corporations, or a debate about free labor markets. Not a problem with immigrants. It just seems to me that the “Immigration Problem” is just a lazy, short-hand way of dodging this and many other underlying issues. Arizona is doing its best to deal with not only the financial catastrophe that exists, but also the unbelievable murder, kidnapping and other felony rates that illegals have caused. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/33 "2010-05-21T15:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Whine, whine, whine. We aren’t being being “burdened” by them, we are profiting off of them, exploiting them. This is classic blaming the victim; we use them as near-slaves, then demonize them so we don’t feel guilty about it. [/QUOTE] This. This is the problem. America’s persistent cognitive dissonance about the exploitation of undocumented workers is the problem. The U.S. government’s consistent unwillingness to trace the immigration boom back to its roots – the neoliberalization of trade policy – is the problem. The refusal of people to understand the ethical difference between jacking a car and _breaking the law to ensure the survival of your family_ is the problem. You want to fix the problem? Get real about what the problem _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/34 "2010-05-21T15:34:00Z")
Like the OP, nearly every defense of this law at least starts out with a strawman. The people against this law are not against it because they want to ignore illegal immigration, or they like illegal immigration, or think illegal immigrants aren’t breaking any laws. The real reasons people are against are the civil liberty concerns already stated in this thread, so I will not repeat them. But it’s very telling to me that I never seem to hear any defense of this law that actually addresses the real concerns, at least until the strawman is countered. And when the real concerns are addressed it’s often countered with the old > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > If I had nothing to hide, it wouldn’t be an issue. Ahh, the classics. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/35 "2010-05-21T15:34:42Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. This is a state issue, so I don’t see how a federal law could possibly over-ride Arizona’s legislation. Unless the federal government is willing to cover the costs associated with illegal immigration, as well as undermining their own immigration laws, they will have to stay out of this one. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are their no copies of the Constitution available on your part of the internet? :dubious: > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > of course. And no law specifically given to the Federal Govt. is reserved for the States. I think the States have every right to decide how they want to spend their tax money. The Federal government can’t direct the states to spend tax money on what the Federal Government says it should. > > Unless you have a copy of the constitution that specifically discusses illegal immigration from Mexico, I’m not sure what you are referring to. He’s referring to the Supremacy Clause in Art. VI: > [@US Constitution](#): > > This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the Contrary notwithstanding. The states cannot simply spend their tax money on anything they please. A state law cannot conflict with federal law. There are several ways to analyze conflicts, and my view is that the Arizona law is not in fact preempted by any federal law, but you cannot argue that the states may make any law they wish because they can spend their tax money any way they please. In areas where Congress has power, and they choose to legislate, the states may not override Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/36 "2010-05-21T15:36:41Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > If you’re a true “American” and you believe that all humans are entitled to the rights we’ve put in the Constitution, then I can’t see how you’d justify leaving out anyone else - after all, they’re humans, right? Who cares what country they were born in. Who says they believe that? I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/37 "2010-05-21T15:50:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who says they believe that? You might call it a logical offshoot of this gibberish: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights… [QUOTE=Sateryn76] It just seems to me that the “Immigration Problem” is just a lazy, short-hand way of dodging this and many other underlying issues. Arizona is doing its best to deal with not only the financial catastrophe that exists, but also the unbelievable murder, kidnapping and other felony rates that illegals have caused. [/QUOTE] Apparently they’re doing much better at inflating their crime statistics than they are at actually dealing with “the problem”. Arizona’s murder, kidnapping and other crime rates are pretty much in the middle of the table, [relative to other states](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0297.pdf). You’re more likely to get murdered in South Carolina. You’re more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault in Delaware. You’re more likely to be forcibly raped in Iowa. They’re second only to Nevada in motor vehicle theft, though. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/38 "2010-05-21T16:03:08Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > This: > > The umbrage with the law isn’t that people want to get all cuddly-wuddly with the illegals (or whatever you want to call them). It’s that there’s something repugnant and unAmerican (as in the Hollywood version of ‘American’) about \*citizens \*being asked to demonstrate citizenship because the look suspicious. This runs from the generalized principle-based loathing to merely whip out an ID to the nightmarish consequences of not having it on you for that day’s walk and what a night or two (or three or four) could mean to _a citizen_ of limited resources (financial, intelligence, social, etc.). > ETA: oops. Didn’t refresh before reading/posting, so there were only two or three replies I was looking at. Sorry if this is redundant or better addressed upthread. Well, if you don’t look suspicious, then you don’t have anything to worry about, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/39 "2010-05-21T16:46:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You might call it a logical offshoot of this gibberish: > Apparently they’re doing much better at inflating their crime statistics than they are at actually dealing with “the problem”. > > Arizona’s murder, kidnapping and other crime rates are pretty much in the middle of the table, [relative to other states](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0297.pdf). You’re more likely to get murdered in South Carolina. You’re more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault in Delaware. You’re more likely to be forcibly raped in Iowa. > > They’re second only to Nevada in motor vehicle theft, though. I think the issue is not so much state-wide numbers, since Arizona is a big state with many areas that are next to unpopulated, unlike Delaware. The issue is the concentration on violent crime at the border regions, and the subsequent police work that leads to illegals. FWIW, I think the real answer to the drug crime is to legalize the use, possession and sale of drugs, but again, that’s another issue that’s being deflected by the froth over immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248/40 "2010-05-21T16:49:04Z")
I see this as a supply-and-demand issue, really. Lots of companies and individuals are willing – eager, even – to hire illegal immigrants as cheap off-the-books labor. There are existing laws against this, but apparently they are seldom enforced, and therein lies the problem. Illegals will keep coming as long as they know there’s plenty of work here for them. Cracking down on employers would help dry up the demand, making it much less attractive for someone to cross the border illegally. I freely admit I don’t know who is responsible for enforcing the existing laws, or why they are not. But I can understand the frustration and desperation which led Arizona to pass this law. Nothing else is working; this is a Hail-Mary pass. The Arizona law is deeply flawed and possibly unconstitutional, but I understand why it exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arizonas-immigration-law-genius/540248.md?page=3)