# Arm all Pilots!!! What's the F 'in problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2001, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658 "2001-09-25T08:56:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/61 "2001-09-27T17:03:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jonfromdenver \* > \*\*yes, this guy got caught, but do you think he would’ve been caught if he did this _before_ the attacks? i think not. \*\* Thanks for that cite. Who knows whether he would have gotten caught before the attack or not; it’s totally irrelevant. The attacks happened. Everything from that point happens with the attacks firmly in mind. Even if he could have gotten through security with his fake license, it doesn’t mean that he could have hopped on any plane he wanted to and flown it off. It also doesn’t change the fact that only pilots actually flying the plane would have the option of being armed. It may be now moot, but if pilots were able to be armed, extra precautions would be taken, and some wanker with a fake pilots license wouldn’t be able to walk through security with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![jonfromdenver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@jonfromdenver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonfromdenver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/62 "2001-09-27T17:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _originally posted by jonfromdenver_ > > does there really need to be an explanation here? this isn’t like the movies, where the bad guys conveniently jump the hero one by one, in which they all wait in line to fight. you have five guys jumping one guy. period. yes, the likelihood is brought down by the fact that plane aisles are small, but still, five guys versus one. he would have to be a professional to down five guys without a single one touching him. > > You are getting me confused now. Are you talking about Air Marshalls, or pilots? An AM would a professional, and under the administration’s proposal there may be more than one of him. The pilot would be behind a secured cockpit door, rendering talk about “plane aisles” moot. note that i said nothing about a secured cockpit door, nor did i mention air marshalls. we all seem to be forgetting the OP here: > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Hail Ants_ > In the US, Air Marshalls cannot ever be put on every single flight. But armed pilots could be. Right now. Within a week! Almost all commercial airline pilots served in the military. This would not be a big deal for them and it should not be a big deal for anyone else. the OP is asking why we shouldn’t arm airline pilots. i was voicing my objection to the idea. i **support** the _idea_ of air marshalls, though it isn’t too logical financially. i also firmly believe there should be a new cockpit door design that increases safety. what i **don’t** support is pilots having guns. i’m sorry if that was not clear. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Demise_ > You probably meant to be serious, but you made me laugh when I read “you don’t put weapons into the hands of anyone around possible criminals”. Please explain to me your rationalization for the reason that cops have guns. Not to mention that fact that any living human on the planet is a “possible” criminal. yes, that was an extremely bad wording. i meant to go on the fact that pilots aren’t trained professionals, and they have other things to worry about when on the job (like flying the plane). cops, on the other hand, are professionals in fighting crime, thus my mind is more at ease with the fact that they carry guns. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Phobos_ > Alternative? > How about pilots & flight crews armed with stun guns? Perhaps this is a workable middle ground between no-guns and arm-all-pilots-with-guns. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Demise_ > Why does it have to be one or the other? Like I said earlier, pilots want a locked mesh door. > > Here’s a senario: hijacker opens outer door, but it will take a few seconds to get through the locked door. Pilot or co-pilot pulls his gun and shoots hijacker through the mesh door. Only one person can fit through the doorway at a time, so any other hijackers wanting to get the mesh door open have to expose themselves, one at a time. Each time they do, they are a target. these are both really good ideas, and the only scenarios thus far in which i would support pilots being armed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/63 "2001-09-27T19:03:56Z")
Gee, gato; I took that news report to mean that not all of the hijackers realized that the planes were going to be flown into a building. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/64 "2001-09-27T23:29:51Z")
thats how i took it too, monty. i don’t believe for a second that each and every hijacker knew for certain this was a suicide mission. that is the only answer that makes sense to me. if not, did they think they were somehow going to get away with jacking a 767? lets assume only the pilots knew what the plan was and none of them had any knowledge of any of the other planes to get jacked (the second guy into the WTC would have figured it out pretty quick!) lets say the pilot told his stooges they were going to fly to a safe haven and issue demands. did they think they would live long after this? (especially if they started to slice people up!) sorry, i don’t buy it. they all knew this was a death sentance and a one way trip to (thier) promised land of sour ferret shit and camel-pussy. another thing is that “these people” (whoever they are) do not view suicide in the same way “we” do. shit, they were doing something heroic in thier tiny twisted minds. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/65 "2001-09-27T23:32:56Z")
oops! my first line should read: i don’t believe the hijackers did NOT know it was a suicide mission… someday, i will evolve a thumb, then maybe learn to proofread! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/66 "2001-09-28T00:51:22Z")
Well, gato; since it’s happened in the past that hijackers have actually gotten away with hijacking airliners, why exactly shouldn’t the latest group of scum not have believed they could’ve gotten away with it too? Come to think of it, the fools who hijacked the Air France flight to Entebbe damn near got away with it. That is, until Israel kicked their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/67 "2001-09-28T22:46:35Z")
didn’t they get whacked? (some of) the fools who tried to blow up the WTC in 93 got caught and are now rotting in prison. (they could have got the chair, but didn’t for some reason…) i just think they knew it was suicide. guess we may never know. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/68 "2001-09-28T22:51:11Z")
Yes, gato; they got whacked. That was the whole point. Reread my posting just above. I said they damn near got away with it. Apparently, nobody believed Israel would even dare to go rescue folks who got hijacked from another country or another country’s airliner. Not only did they damn near get away with it, they had a lot of governmental assistance from Big Daddy. ---
**Author:** ![Kate\_W](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/cc9497/32.png) [@Kate\_W](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kate_W)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/69 "2001-09-28T22:57:35Z")
I seem to recall a study from a few years ago (looking for a cite) stating that pilots were not given enough downtime to receover from flight to flight, so they were among the highest rated in a group of overtired, stressed professions. Not sure I’d feel awfully comfortable knowing that they had guns and carte blanche to use them if they felt threatened on top of lacking time to sleep and de-stress. I hallucinate when I haven’t slept enough, although I don’t know how common that is. I wouldn’t want me to be armed if I hadn’t been sleeping enough. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2001, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658/70 "2001-09-29T11:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amrussell \* > \*\ ***Wierd Al** > > In some cases, you seem to be arguing that pilots should be armed as teh cockpit is vulnerable, and in others ot be arguing that terrorists could not burst in on the pilots as the cockpit is safely secured. \*\* I refer you to what I said before about “belt and suspenders”. I think the cockpit doors ought to be secured, but I don’t think we should entirely _rely_ on this. Hence I think it may be a good idea to have the pilots armed as a _backup_, in case securing the cockpit door fails. Is that really so hard to understand? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amrussell \* > \*\*I submit that if the cockpit is safely secured, the presence of guns would only encourage the pilots to emerge to fight the terrorists, thus making the cockpit vulnerable. \*\* And what on earth makes you think that a pilot, armed or not, would do such an incredibly stupid thing, _especially_ after the events of 9/11? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amrussell \* > \*\*So to clarify the question, when exactly do you think pilots would be using their guns, \*\* See what I said above. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amrussell \* > \*\*and why do you think, in this situation, that it would be better for them to do so than to sit behind a locked door? \*\* Better to do what? Go out and confront the terrorists? I _don’t_ think that would be a good idea. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\*To the OP… > > How about this? Terrorists would no longer need to smuggle guns onto planes. They could just get a fake pilots license (something they obviously can do) and voila…armed terrorist on a plane.\*\* To fly a jumbo jet they would also have to get hired by a major airline, which have, or I assume will have after the events of 9/11, extensive background and security checks. Not that I can see, whatever kind of plane it is, what difference it would make if such a hypothetical “terrorist pilot” were armed or not. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\*re: reinforced cockpit door… > I’m not so sure the pilots would keep it locked if the terrorists started killing/torturing, or threatening to kill/torturing, passengers. \*\* We can’t say for sure, no, but given the events of 9/11 it certainly will be their _duty_ to keep terrorists out of the cockpit _no matter what_. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\*When a hijacker is banging on the door, the pilots don’t know if they plan to ram the plane into a building or just to land the plane in some other country. \*\* Realistically, they will have to assume that the terrorists are suicide bombers from now on. We really simply can’t take the risk of assuming otherwise, as I have pointed out numerous times. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\*The history is that most hijacked planes were not used as bombs. So, the pilots may want to definitely save lives (passengers) rather than let them (or even one) die/come to harm on an assumption that the hijacker has the worst motives in mind. \*\* As per what I said above, I completely disagree with this. The “history” of hijacking is completely irrelevent. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\*Plus, during the hijacking, everyone is in panic and not thinking calmly and rationally. \*\* Many of the passengers, no doubt, but pilots are (or should be) trained to keep cool in situations like this. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > **The impulse is to relieve the immediate danger.** An impulse on which, from now on, we _absolutely must not act_, as I have said numerous times before. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amrussell \* > \*\*Alternative? > How about pilots & flight crews armed with stun guns? Perhaps this is a workable middle ground between no-guns and arm-all-pilots-with-guns. \*\* Quite possibly. I’d like to see some studies done on this, and or here what some experts have to say. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by geniusparv \* > \*\*What is wrong with Americans ? > No other culture in the world is so trigger obsessed!!! > [_Many more statements like this!!! With three exclamation points!!! Which is supposed to impress us somehow!!! Though I’m not sure how!!!_] > \*\* I’ll be giving this all the attention it deserves. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jonfromdenver \* > \*\*i also firmly believe there should be a new cockpit door design that increases safety. what i **don’t** support is pilots having guns. i’m sorry if that was not clear. > \*\* See what I said above to amrussel about “belt and suspenders”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kate\_W \* > \*\*I seem to recall a study from a few years ago (looking for a cite) stating that pilots were not given enough downtime to receover from flight to flight, so they were among the highest rated in a group of overtired, stressed professions. Not sure I’d feel awfully comfortable knowing that they had guns and carte blanche to use them if they felt threatened on top of lacking time to sleep and de-stress. I hallucinate when I haven’t slept enough, although I don’t know how common that is. I wouldn’t want me to be armed if I hadn’t been sleeping enough. \*\* If you think they’re stressed now, wait until you see what they are like when they can’t leave the sealed cockpit on a 16 hour flight. Pilots need to eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom, a fact that would seem to preclude cockpits sealed to the point that no one can enter or leave, at least on longer flights. I have brought up this fact several times to people who think that sealing the cockpit door would be a viable alternative to arming the pilots, and I have not gotten a response. I would think that if what you say is true, Kate, then we are simply going to have to start giving the pilots more downtime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-all-pilots-whats-the-f-in-problem/83658.md?page=3)