# Arm Chair Jurors: Wrestling Teen **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868 "2001-01-26T15:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/21 "2001-01-27T02:18:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtal \* > WTF?! > I think by 12, most people have learned something about the fragileness of life. Even if you have been so sheltered you have no concept of mortality, 12 years is more than enough time to learn the following social mores: 1) Don’t pick on people littler than yourself. 2) Don’t hit girls. 3) Don’t keep hitting people when they are down. > This boy did all these things. That’s why I said he knew he was doing something wrong, but didn’t understand the finality of his actions. Kids at that age still have romanticized notions about life events. Having a baby is an easy way to get love, not a lifetime commitment. Suicide means that family members will be standing around crying, wishing they had been nicer to you, not a final and permanent action. I know that’s how myself and peers thought at that age. Perhaps we were all just too “sheltered”. I don’t know the details of the killing. When I first posted I assumed that the child was killed when initially thrown against the bannister. However, there is apparently some evidence out there that the child scream and plead for her life. I admit, that changes my opinion of the boy. Oh, and I used to fall firmly on the side of the argument that violence doesn’t affect how children act. However, a recent study has shown that violent children will become less violent if their access to television is reduced or eliminated. However, I agree with DDG in that parental input makes a _huge_ difference. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/22 "2001-01-27T03:49:25Z")
I am shaking in hatred over his family not accepting the plea bargain. What kind of family would allow their child to spend his entire life in jail just so they could have the vanity of him pleading ‘not guilty’. The plea bargain was perfectly reasonable, and they knew what they were up against. Sometimes, in believeing that their children are perfectly innocent, parents make the worst and cruelest mistakes. Now their precious son faces an unbelievable sentance so that they could have that one moment of pride. As far as I am concerned, Lionel’s future was sacrificed for his familie’s petty pride. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/23 "2001-01-27T04:17:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > So I don’t see anything intrinsically bad about WWF, any more than I see anything intrinsically bad about _Mortal Kombat._ Mortal Combat is obviously fake. WWF is live action combat in which the reality of the fight is a strong and consitent conceit. It’s like the difference between a movie in which someone goes to a fortune teller, and a psychic hotline commercial in which a person actally pretends to be telling the future. Or even better, the difference between the “War of the Worlds” movie, and the radio show (assuming I haven’t fallen for an UL). > [@](#): > > **Ryan,** I think boys who are properly supervised by adults can watch Smackdown without causing the death of younger children. And I can drive with a BAC of .12 without killing anyone. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. > [@](#): > > I’d have to disagree with you, that it’s like watching a cooking show where the cook reaches into a pot of boiling water. Bonzo’s been watching wrestling since he was 10, and from the git-go he’s had Mom (and Dad) reminding him, “Now, you know this is all fake, it’s all scripted.” I don’t see how this contradicts my position. Yes, WWF isn’t dangerous if parents make sure their children realize it’s fake. The same is true for my cooking show example. minty green > [@](#): > > You seem to be taking the kid at his post hoc word. I was sure to include qualifications, such “from what I can see” “I didn’t see that” and “I think”. Obviously, I don’t have the full story. However, **based on what I’ve seen** he should have been charged with manslaughter. This is a conditional statement, and does not assume that the condition holds. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/24 "2001-01-27T05:36:01Z")
Isn’t there a concept known as “felony murder,” which holds that if one is committing a felony, and someone dies as a result of your felony, even if one did not intend to kill that person, one is guilty of murder in the first degree? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/25 "2001-01-27T05:57:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by The Ryan \* > **based on what I’ve seen** he should have been charged with manslaughter._\* I would bet that the jury was given instructions on manslaughter, and that they rejected that charge in favor of murder one. You may want to check out the recent thread on lesser included charges. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > **Isn’t there a concept known as “felony murder,” which holds that if one is committing a felony, and someone dies as a result of your felony, even if one did not intend to kill that person, one is guilty of murder in the first degree?** Yep. Most states recognize some form of felony murder, which is more or less as you describe it. But felony murder only applies if the defendant was committing a felony offense separate from whatever killed the victim. Liquor store employee croaks of a heart attack from fright because defendant was robbing said store. Result: felony murder. Here in Texas, defendant can now start thinking about which arm he wants the lethal injection in. That’s why all six of the remaining “Texas Seven” escapees who killed the cop during a robbery in Irving will now be on trial for capital muder, regardless of which one(s) actually pulled the trigger. 170-lb. twelve-year-old punches six-year-old in the shoulder, with no intent to kill and no reasonable possibility that a punch in the shoulder would kill the victim. Six-year-old dies. Result: assault. No murder charges can be filed. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/26 "2001-01-27T07:11:36Z")
Wrestling consist of two people generally of the same size and/or skill. If sizes mismatch, then the smaller opponent usually has vastly more skill than the larger one to even it out. The tragic situation we have in this case is that it was a massive mismatch in size (the boy weighed about 180lbs at the time, the girl about 45). In this situation, the bigger person playwrestlling must take even greater care so as not to injure the one he is playing with. Judging by the injuries reported, not only was he not careful about what he was doing with her, he was wrestling her full contact, using what Baron Miguel Sicluna would say “punch-kick” style, obviously ignoring all signs of pain. Anyone seeing that would have broken it up immediately. How sad that the babysitter wasn’t there to stop it. The boy showed absolutely no self-control, which in pro-wrestling such actions would get you fired. shelbo, more violent stuff than pro-wrestling is shown in the US media every day, yet crime is going down. No one is living the life of Hannibal Lecter, or roaming the countryside killing everyone in sight, that is without getting caught. Take people for granted, they know what is real and what is not, what is good behavior and what is bad. You don’t want to live the life tof he soap operas you watch, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Surgoshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Surgoshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surgoshan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/27 "2001-01-27T19:03:44Z")
Boy punches six year old in the shoulder, six year old dies: assault. Boy throws six year old into stair railing and wall, jumps on six year old’s head, punches and kicks six year old in such a way to damage bones and internal organs, six year old dies… From what I know of professional wrestling, if you aren’t aware that it’s fake by the age of 12, either you’re living in a bomb shelter alone, you’re mentally deficient, or you’ve been repeatedly told by your parents that it’s real. It looks fake, unless you think stomping your foot and waving your hands in someone’s face is supposed to actually do damage. It looks like this is a boy who just really wanted to hurt that girl. Unfortunately, she’s dead now. If he’s lucky, maybe he’ll get the help he needs. If not he’ll either spend the rest of his life in prison, or will re-enter society as bad or worse than now. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/28 "2001-01-27T19:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bobo \* > It’s somewhat disturbing that a judge wouldn’t allow a defendant to have the best possible defense. I wish it had listed the judge’s reasoning behind that decision. > > \ > judge thought “mitigating circumstances might prevent conviction, we can’t have that” > \ Under law, evidence must be two things: (1) relevant, and (2) such that its probative value is greater than its prejudicial weight. (#2 means that the aid the evidence provides the jury in determining guilt or innocence is greater than the odds the evidence will inflame or prejudice the jury). The judge most likely determined that, as a matter of law, whether or not wrestling influenced the boy into doing what he did was irrelevant to the issue of whether he did what he did intentionally, and did it with intent to abuse the little girl. Just because the kid got an idea, didn’t mean it wasn’t his decision to put that idea into practice. Sua ---
**Author:** ![ladybug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@ladybug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladybug)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/29 "2001-01-27T20:32:27Z")
I found yesterday’s “Burden of Proof” [transcript](http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0101/26/bp.00.html) online. Here is the part of the show I was referring to earlier, when Greta Van Susteren spoke with Ken Padowitz, the assistant state attorney for Broward County: > [@](#): > > VAN SUSTEREN: But that goes to the – you know, whether or not that was indeed what happened. But in terms of simply the defense itself, has the media been fair in saying that the defense was, wrestling made me do it? Wasn’t it instead the defense that it was an accidental killing. I was simply doing things that I thought was done in wrestling? > > PADOWITZ: No, actually both are correct. The defense came out – when the defendant was first arrested and given a – basically he gave a sworn statement to the sheriff’s office here – he said he was playing tag. Wrestling had nothing to do with it. It was only after months later all of a sudden we start hearing that professional wrestling is somehow involved in the case. There was no child’s play here. There was no professional wrestling, this was not a trial about media violence or professional wrestling. According to the transcript, Padowitz suggested that he may go to the governor after the boy is sentenced to life in prison and have the sentence commuted to one more appropriate for a 12 year old. He never specifically said what the new sentence might be. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2001, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868/30 "2001-01-28T05:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > **The defense attorney refused it?** From what I read, it wasn’t the defense attorney’s idea. From what I read in the Daily News, his mother “was so convinced that it was an accident that she refused the bargain”. Sounds like she’s a poor mother, and that this is more of a result of bad parenting than anything else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-chair-jurors-wrestling-teen/51868.md?page=1)