# Arm the Pilots? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 14, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637 "2001-09-14T17:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shane/32/10599_2.png) [@Shane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shane)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/21 "2001-09-14T22:36:04Z")
I was watching CNN or MSNBC, one of those stations, yesterday (as I’m sure most of us were). There was a guy they were talking to in the studio who used to be head of security of an airport, I think it was LOWW (?) in Vienna. He was talking about the cockpit doors and how flimsy they currently are. He said they need to redesign the doors and make them much thicker with heavy duty locking mechanisms. He also mentioned something about the current doors, how it’s possible for a terrorist linebacker to run though them and bust them open. I’m sure a lot of good changes will develop from this. Sucks how it sometimes has to take a tragedy to make better changes. I also like the knockout gas idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/22 "2001-09-14T23:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by meek \* > \*\*How about… Arm the whole crew - but not with guns, with **tazer stun guns**. > Give every member of the flight crew the power to use them at their discretion, even if it’s just to subdue a drunk or irate passenger. > Passengers will think twice before getting out of line if they know the stewardess is packing heat and can knock them on their asses with a flip of a switch. The safety of everyone aboard is more important. \*\* This would work only if the flight crew had no qualms about using them AND the sue-the-pants-off-em mentality didn’t crush the whole program before it was found effective. Overall, not a bad idea. (“Damn, Cletus, I _told_ ya not to light up a cigarette on the plane! Now look at ya!”) > [@](#): > > _meek (continued)_ > \*\*And/or - electronically seal the cockpit and have the electronic code “key” only available at the air traffic tower of the final destination. If a aircraft has to be re-routed due to bad weather etc, the “key” code could be forwarded to the next airport. The pilot won’t be able to leave the cockpit, but so what? > Install cockpit video cameras and override the yoke by remote control if any unauthorized person(s) takes over control of the plane. > Or is that just too easy? > Anyone see holes in my potential solutions? \*\* Electronics are simply too easy to defeat. For protection from hijack situations, I think the simplest solution would be no access to a shielded cockpit from the passenger cabin. Armor and a separate hatch for the pilots and cockpit crew would add weight that would have to be compensated for. And, of course, this would provide no real advantage over anyone who (1) doesn’t care where the plane crashes and (2) has the ability to cripple the plane from within the passenger cabin. Video isn’t such a bad idea, but (assuming the “no cockpit access” idea is dumped) an armed and TRAINED cockpit crew would probably be better served if the cameras were trained on the passenger cabin to give them some measure of warning that something is afoot. In any case, I believe the big question is: How does the cockpit crew handle a passenger or flight crew HOSTAGE situation? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/23 "2001-09-14T23:55:38Z")
I seem to recall hearing that they used sky marshals before. After a while without any hijackings, however, they canned them. That is my biggest fear: whatever security measures that we put in, we’ll get lazy after a year or two and stop using them. Anyways, I’m not sure that I’m fully comfortable with the idea of having armed guards on the planes. We have this idea that the “sky marshals” will be highly trained commandos, but the reality will be closer to the rent-a-cops at the local mall. You know that this will be true. Another problem is that the terrorists will almost certainly have the advantage of surprise. One could get up, apparently to go to the bathroom, and then suddenly attack the marshal without warning. Another terrorist or two could then jump up to delay any would-be heros among the passengers, and within five seconds the terrorists have a gun… ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/24 "2001-09-15T00:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > **Or NO adjoining passages to the cockpit from the interior of the plane, and a seperate entrance for the pilots, all shielded.** I _really_ like this idea. ---
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/25 "2001-09-15T03:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by meek \* > \*\*Arm the whole crew - but not with guns, with **tazer stun guns**. > > \*\* THIS is what occurred to me too. Man, with guns, someone will get shot, who ought not to get shot. But, with a tazer, or cattle prod, you could use that safely on some of the drunks causing problems too! Also, strengthening the door that separates the pilots. I had no idea that it was so flimsy. I’ve heard so many nay-sayers discussing the weight of that, that it ‘isn’t cost efficient’. Huh??? Is losing planes MORE cost efficient?? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/26 "2001-09-21T17:33:14Z")
[Written by a pilot.](http://www.harrisonline.com/heard/wtc_pilotletter.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/27 "2001-09-21T18:06:15Z")
Leave 2 to 4 seats OPEN on each flight. Unsellable. GIVEN to registered Police Officers, FBI Agents, etc. etc. who want to fly for free, with the stipulation that they would be “on duty” for the duration of the flight. THEY get free travel, we get security on a LOT of flights for “free”. They could even register for those flights in advance, in a first come, first served queue. Then, 30 minutes before the flight goes off, they could offer any empty seats to standby or emergency passengers. Waddya think? ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/28 "2001-09-21T23:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > \*\*THEY get free travel, we get security on a LOT of flights for “free”. They could even register for those flights in advance, in a first come, first served queue. Then, 30 minutes before the flight goes off, they could offer any empty seats to standby or emergency passengers. > Waddya think? \*\* Excellent! But I think it would be better and safer if they were REQUIRED to register in advance. The officer’s parent organization would then be responsible for transmiting identifying information to the airline which would be used at an appropriate security checkpoint. I’m assuming that this program would also be open to members of the U.S. military who serve as Military Police or Shore Patrol, and perhaps a few other specific military specialties? I would also suggest allowing their immediate family members to purchase tickets at a reduced rate (our boys in blue aren’t making a career in the highest paid profession, ya know)… Couldn’t venture a guess at which airline(s) would be receptive to this idea with the current economic situation, but someone (like Oicu812) ought to suggest this to someone who can get things done - maybe Pennsylvania’s soon to be ex-governor once he gets his Homeland Security office up and running… ---
**Author:** ![Pessor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pessor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pessor)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/29 "2001-09-22T04:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Silver Fire \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > > **Or NO adjoining passages to the cockpit from the interior of the plane, and a seperate entrance for the pilots, all shielded.** > > I _really_ like this idea. \*\* I say it’s solid. The people responsible for money at a bank are locked in so nobody fucks with them. Why not make it as difficult for the cockpit to be visited? Pilots have no business out of the cockpit until they’ve put the money away aka landed the plane. Hate to say it like that but that’s the responsibility of the whole organization. So what, do they need to pay them more or something? Call it a flying tax and move on. …of course there is the hostage or the bomb. I say gas. ---
**Author:** ![Sultan\_Kinkari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7bcc69/32.png) [@Sultan\_Kinkari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sultan_Kinkari)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/30 "2001-09-22T05:08:45Z")
\*\* [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Silver Fire \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > **Or NO adjoining passages to the cockpit from the interior of the plane, and a seperate entrance for the pilots, all shielded.** I think the pilots might get a little hungy on thos trans-At and trans-Pac flights. ---
**Author:** ![Oicu812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f475e1/32.png) [@Oicu812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oicu812)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/31 "2001-09-22T18:52:44Z")
Pack a lunch. Nice little microwave, and you are all set. ---
**Author:** ![Phlip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Phlip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlip)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/32 "2001-09-22T19:18:22Z")
What about when they have to go pee pee or poo poo? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/33 "2001-09-22T19:34:13Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Sultan Kinkari \* \*\* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Silver Fire \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Oicu812 \* > > **Or NO adjoining passages to the cockpit from the interior of the plane, and a seperate entrance for the pilots, all shielded.** > > I think the pilots might get a little hungy on thos trans-At and trans-Pac flights. \*\* The cockpit is an emergency escape route. Similarly, the pilots might want to exit through the cabin if the front of the plane was on fire. ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/34 "2001-09-22T19:45:19Z")
I’ve spoken to my brother - who was both a military and commercial pilot - about this, and his take is that air marshalls are probably the best of the choices. He says that while on short haul flights sealing the pilot and co-pilot in an unbreachable bulkhead probably wouldn’t be a huge drama, on long-haul flights it simply isn’t practicable. According to my brother, while for most of any flight the aircraft is on autopilot, the one reason pilots are paid so much is for their ability to handle the aircraft manually if the avionics fail - for that you need to be alert. He likens the scenario of locking the pilot and co-cockpit to that of driving on a long stretch of unchanging road - you become fatigued and less alert, and your judgement is impaired. The one thing you most definitely don’t want, is a judgement impaired pilot landing your aircraft (apparently takeoff and landing are the times when something is most likely to go wrong during a flight). Almost totally off-topic, but related to the issue of airline safety - my brother tells me that commercial airlines have a rule which says the pilot and co-pilot cannot choose the same meal on a flight. The reasoning behind the rule is that should one get food poisoning from the food, the other should still be OK to command the aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/35 "2001-09-22T20:49:22Z")
The pilots already have an escape hatch - those window in the cockpit open! I didn’t know this until there was a video on [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) about an American pilot that was flying a flag out of the cockpit as he was taxiing around the airport. I have a friend who works for AA and we were discussing this. She says that they have that because it may be the only way to get out of the cockpit if the door is blocked during a crash. They also have ropes. And (from the same source) they don’t need to put in gas, either. All they have to do is flip a circuit breaker that disables the oxygen masks in the cabin, then de-pressurize the cabin. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/36 "2001-09-22T23:58:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zyada \* > \*\*And (from the same source) they don’t need to put in gas, either. All they have to do is flip a circuit breaker that disables the oxygen masks in the cabin, then de-pressurize the cabin. \*\* …which will work just fine unless flying at lower (thus breathable) altitudes. I had thought about knockout gas, too, when someone suggested earlier in this thread, but decided it had some major drawbacks. I thought that gas that can incapacitate people may not be such a great idea - expecially if the pilot and copilot somehow manage to fall victim to it. Who pilots the airliner tnen? ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637/37 "2001-09-24T12:47:12Z")
Hey folks, just to let you know, there are a whole bunch of threads on this subject in GD, for example [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88822) and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88208). I am kinda surprised this one hasn’t been bumped up there, or at least to IMHO, as this issue obviously is neither mundane nor pointless [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arm-the-pilots/81637.md?page=1)