# Armageddon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117 "2003-09-22T16:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/41 "2003-09-23T19:53:26Z")
The event I believe the Mayan calender predicts is the coincidence of the solstice with the galactic plane; the solstice(s) are points on the ecliptic, which is the plane of the Earth’s orbit around the Sun. Additionally the ecliptic crosses the galactic plane at a different pair of points; however I seem to remember these two points more or less coincide in December 2012. It is a remarkable achievement of the Mayan astronomers that they worked out the movement of the Sun/ Earth system so accurately so far in advance- they seem to have worked this all out two centuries BC. This is a fantastic achievement of observational astronomy by people who were using stone implements. since the appearance of Homo Sapiens humanity has been potentially capable of any modern-day intellectual acheivement, and the Mayan calender is one of the most impressive examples. It is insulting to the memory of these excellent, dedicated skywatchers to construct a mountain of piffle around their observations. * * * SF worldbuilding at [http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html](http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html) ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/42 "2003-09-23T20:37:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by eburacum45 \* > \*\*The event I believe the Mayan calender predicts is the coincidence of the solstice with the galactic plane; > the solstice(s) are points on the ecliptic, which is the plane of the Earth’s orbit around the Sun. > Additionally the ecliptic crosses the galactic plane at a different pair of points; > > however I seem to remember these two points more or less coincide in December 2012. > > It is a remarkable achievement of the Mayan astronomers that they worked out the movement of the Sun/ Earth system so accurately so far in advance- they seem to have worked this all out two centuries BC. > > This is a fantastic achievement of observational astronomy by people who were using stone implements. > > since the appearance of Homo Sapiens humanity has been potentially capable of any modern-day intellectual acheivement, and the Mayan calender is one of the most impressive examples. > > It is insulting to the memory of these excellent, dedicated skywatchers to construct a mountain of piffle around their observations. > > * * * > > SF worldbuilding at > [http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html](http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html) \*\* Piffle. You used ‘piffle’ in a sentence. Did your bow tie twirl around when you wrote that? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/43 "2003-09-23T20:58:04Z")
[On preview, **eburacum45** ’s made some of the same points.] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > According to **The Encyclopedia of the Solar System** , published by Academic Press, the solar system is currently moving _away_ from the galactic plane or equator, having last been there between two and three million years ago. If so, to reach the plane and cross through it in 2012 we are going to have to (1) reverse our course and (2) really skedaddle. Correct, but you’re misunderstanding the original claim. Though it is a case where understanding it correctly shows just how arbitrary it is. Through the year, the Sun traces out the circle called the ecliptic on the sky. Since this is just a projection of the Earth’s orbit, it isn’t effected by precession - the slow twisting of the Earth’s axis of rotation over a period of something like 26,000 years. What precession does change is where the Sun is on the ecliptic at the solstices. Basically, the winter solstice is when the Sun is at the southernmost point of the ecliptic, but precession is changing the position of the North Pole on the sky, so this point circles round the ecliptic over the precessional cycle. Currently, the Sun is in Sagittarius at the winter solstice. Coincidentally, this point almost exactly coincides with the Galactic Equator - the plane of the Milky Way as projected out on the sky. It’s also fairly close to the position of the Galactic Centre, as seen on the sky. So there’ll be some true statement of the form: sometime soon the Sun at the winter solstice will be more closely aligned with the Galactic Centre than at any time in the last or next 26,000 years. Whether this is in 2012 will depend on exactly what you mean by “aligned” etc. But, even so, the alignment isn’t terribly close. The ecliptic doesn’t get closer than about 5 degrees to the Galactic Centre, so they’ll still be off by 10 times the diameter of the Sun. By those standards, even this winter the Sun at the solstice will be “in the direction of” the Galactic Centre. Is any of this of any physical significance? None whatsoever. To reiterate what’s been said before, this is just _astrology_. The centre of the Galaxy doesn’t give a damn about the Sun and the Earth. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > A calendar is an artificial construct - it is an arbitrary measurement of time. I don’t understand your claim of ‘perfection’, please elaborate. Again true, but it depends which of the Mayan calendars is being refered to. They had several different ones, with very different bases. The simpler, which had much in common with those used elsewhere in Pre-Columbian America, were just counting out long interlocking cycles. You’re absolutely right, in that this is entirely arbitrary. Just a way of labelling days, not unlike our cycle of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday … Saturday, though on a much grander scale. However, they had other calendar cycles that were based on the planet Venus. These calendars were approximations to naturally occuring astronomical cycles like the rising and setting of Venus and the phases of the Moon, but which had the property of being very good approximations to these cycles over long periods. A usually quoted figure is that they were only out by 1 day in 4000 years, in the sense of being able to predict, say, the phase of the Moon. Though the exact level of accuracy can be argued about to some extent. **Akuma** ’s source is confusing these two types of calendar. The Venus cycle ones were utterly remarkable for the time in being able to approximate real astronomical events. But the supposed significance of 2012 isn’t based on these ones. It’s to do with a very long cycle in the older, more primitive and arbitrary counting calendar. This calendar was “exact”, but only in the same trivial sense that we always know the day of the week exactly. Part of the confusion is that the likes of von Daniken have overstated the accuracy of the Venus cycles. Since the people promoting the 2012 nonsense tend to get their Mayan astronomy from such sources, this doesn’t help. > [@](#): > > ‘On December 21st of that year the solstice sun of our solar system will be aligned in conjunction with the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. Our solar system will then reside on the opposite side of the galactic equator. It is conjectured that the result of this shift will be a momentary field effect reversal of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. The electromagnetic spectrum of the earth has a direct effect on human consciousness. It is also conjectured than an explosion equivalent to a thousand supernovas will occur in the center of our galaxy. If these two events do indeed occur the probability of a global magnetic polar shift or of a tectonic plate shift happening, dramatically increases. The result, if both of these were to happen simultaneously, would be a world cataclysm.’ Ridiculing someone’s source is no substitute for explaining why an argument is wrong, but I can’t help but point out that this derives from [here](http://www.magicmusicmyth.com/enlightenment.html). Which is part of the page for [this](http://www.magicmusicmyth.com). Some people literally making a song and dance of The End of the World ? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/44 "2003-09-23T23:22:18Z")
I recently took a Geology class, and much was made of the point that the poles’ magnetics haven’t changed in so long (many hundreds of thousands of years, IIRC), that no one knows what would happen to migrating animals if suddenly north magnetic pointed to the south. It’s one of those things I try not to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/45 "2003-09-23T23:26:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nametag \* > > > [@](#): > > > > It is conjectured that the result of this shift will be a momentary field effect reversal of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. > > \*\*WTF does this mean? I know these words, but they don’t seem to go together (well, except for “electromagnetic” and “spectrum”; those go together). \*\* I’m not going to spell it out for you man, just **don’t cross the streams!** ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/46 "2003-09-24T01:48:42Z")
Cite, please, for the Mayans even knowing the galaxy existed? The fact that the Milky Way was a galaxy, and not the entire universe, was not known until the beginning of the last century. How would you define Galactic equator anyhow? A plane such that the mass of stars above it equal to that below it? How about number of stars? It can’t be equidistant from the edges of the galaxy, since there is no edge to the galaxy (no matter what was shown in the second ST pilot.) Constellations cannot have any effect on anything. The constellations are just a pattern of stars that make up a picture as identified from earth. Go someplace else, and there are no (or different) constellations. And BTW, even if something did happen in the center of the galaxy, we wouldn’t know about it for thousands of years. Not to mention anything happening here would take thousands of years to affect anything in the center of the galaxy. It’s called the speed of light. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117/47 "2003-09-24T13:20:12Z")
All **Akuma Kage** ’s stuff about the Mayan calendar is just a garbled rehash of the ideas of [John Major Jenkins](http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html). Jenkins however has his critics. There is not even agreement about some of his basic facts. Not all Mayan scholars believe that the Long Count ends on 21 December 2012 and at least [one of his critics](http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/cjc.htm) has argued that Jenkins’s supposedly crucial alignment has already happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armageddon/203117.md?page=2)