# Armando Galarraga: A Perfect Solution is to Make it Perfect **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769 "2010-06-03T14:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/61 "2010-06-05T00:41:42Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Can’t get real worked up about it. It wouldn’t be a perfect game anyway, unless they found a way to insert at least three trips to the batter’s box for Galarraga. 🙂 I can find no evidence that baseball has ever overturned an umpire’s safe/out; ball/strike; balk/not a balk; etc.; call on the field after the end of the game. Can anyone? I sincerely hope that instant replay in baseball will not be extended to every close play at any base. Talk about a slow game. I have a rule for a no-hitter/perfect game that I think is better and simpler than MLB’s–the pitcher must be the starting pitcher and he must pitch a complete game. That allows such as Denny Martinez’ five inning no-hitter, and removes such as Ernie Shore. Yes, sadly, it also removes such as Haddix, but, hell, we still know what Haddix did. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/62 "2010-06-05T15:19:58Z")
Yes, **Frank** , the [Pine Tar Game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Game). Brett was called out for using an illegal bat, but MLB reversed the call and ordered the game resumed from that point, cancelling everything that had happened afterward. > [@RickJay](#): > > They can change the record books all they want. I know what Harvey Haddix did, so do you, and so do most baseball fans. > > Bud Selig can’t tell me what history is. I know what it is. Armando Galarraga pitched a perfect game - and at 28 outs, the most perfect game ever pitched, and that’s the end of it. If you know what Haddix did, then THAT was the most perfect game ever pitched. 38 outs. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/63 "2010-06-05T20:28:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, **Frank** , the [Pine Tar Game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Game). Brett was called out for using an illegal bat, but MLB reversed the call and ordered the game resumed from that point, cancelling everything that had happened afterward. That’s not a judgment call (e.g., as Frank said, safe/out; ball/strike; etc.), that’s a protest over the misapplication of a rule. That’s the only protest that will be entertained–a rule was misunderstood and misapplied. Judgment calls have never been reversed after a game is in the books, not that I’m aware of. And I would have been okay with the perfect game being “reinstated,” but I acknowledge that’s emotional on my part. There’s really no basis for it in the rules. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/64 "2010-06-05T21:47:42Z")
Fair enough, but then how about all the instances of home runs being ruled foul, and vice versa, since replay was instituted? Those are judgment-based on-field calls too. We use replay when possible in every other sport, in every situation when it can help, because we know sportsmanship requires getting the calls right, not just respecting the officials, who want to get it right too btw. What’s the difference? The evidence is available and it’s clear cut, if the available tools are used to their fullest extent. Baseball’s only truly nonreviewable judgment calls, even today, are balls and strikes. And the technology is conceivable to take even that margin of error out of the game. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/65 "2010-06-05T21:51:44Z")
anarchistic != anachronistic ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/66 "2010-06-05T22:26:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Fair enough, but then how about all the instances of home runs being ruled foul, and vice versa, since replay was instituted? Those are judgment-based on-field calls too. We use replay when possible in every other sport, in every situation when it can help, because we know sportsmanship requires getting the calls right, not just respecting the officials, who want to get it right too btw. But even those options are unavailable if a single play takes place, right? Again, it’s real time, according to recently established rules, not something that occurs after the game, or even after a single subsequent play. I do think that’s what makes this case more easy to overturn–nothing about the outcome of the game (except the phantom hit and the next at bat) gets changed if the perfect game is reinstated. But, again, I acknowledge I can’t really point to a rule or a precedent that permits it. > [@](#): > > What’s the difference? The evidence is available and it’s clear cut, if the available tools are used to their fullest extent. Baseball’s only truly nonreviewable judgment calls, even today, are balls and strikes. And the technology is conceivable to take even that margin of error out of the game. For this case? Not much difference, I agree. The rules don’t permit it, but it feels like nitpicking in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/67 "2010-06-05T22:31:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, **Frank** , the [Pine Tar Game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Game). Brett was called out for using an illegal bat, but MLB reversed the call and ordered the game resumed from that point, cancelling everything that had happened afterward. > > If you know what Haddix did, then THAT was the most perfect game ever pitched. 38 outs. But Haddix finally did give up a hit, and it wasn’t becase of an umpire screwup. Galarraga never did. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/68 "2010-06-06T03:19:53Z")
It wasn’t his fault his team couldn’t score for him. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/69 "2010-06-06T03:36:24Z")
To me, there is no slippery slope. The call was wrong, and it would be simple to fix this. This is why I think Bud Selig is truly an idiot. I just don’t say that to be poking fun at him. I truly think he is has a double digit IQ. The game was over. The next guy grounded out, so what would actually change? One guy would get a free at bat on his season total. Big deal. The pitcher would get a perfect game, the greatest achievement possible for a pitcher. He’ll never do it again. But in my mind, he did it already, so his name should be added to the list of 19-20 pitchers who have done it in the history of the game. But Bud is a toad. Afraid of opening a pandora’s box. What pandora’s box? Remember George Brett’s pine tar bat game? He hit a home run with a bat with too much pine tar, and a 5-4 lead in the ninth was changed to a 4-3 win for the Yankees. The Royals protested and the league agreed with them. They got to replay the last 4 outs of the game, and the Royals got to keep the win. The right thing to do and the right call. Gah! I hate stupid people. Bud Selig is stupid people. And you can’t fix stupid. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/70 "2010-06-06T03:47:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, **Frank** , the [Pine Tar Game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Game). Brett was called out for using an illegal bat, but MLB reversed the call and ordered the game resumed from that point, cancelling everything that had happened afterward. > > If you know what Haddix did, then THAT was the most perfect game ever pitched. 38 outs. Just to clean this unbelievable pitching feat, Haddix pitched perfect for 12 straight innings. 36 straight outs. The lead-off hitter for the Braves in the 13th reached on an error by infielder Don Hoak. I agree with the idea that Haddix pitched the most incredible game in MLB history. It has stood the test of time, and still boggles the mind. The Pirates sucked even then and couldn’t get him one run even though they had 12 hits of their own. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/71 "2010-06-06T14:41:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It wasn’t his fault his team couldn’t score for him. It’s also not a piticher’s fault if a shortstop boots a ground ball, but you still wouldn’t call it a perfect game. Galarraga’s game was more a perfect game than Haddix’s, **in my opinion**. That doesn’t change the greatness of what Haddix did; nonetheless, I see Galarraga’s feat as truer to the sense of a perfect game. You are free to disagree, and I certainly can see the argument, but please spare us your usual “you don’t know anything about baseball” horseshit. [QUOTE=Stink Fish Pot] But Bud is a toad. Afraid of opening a pandora’s box. What pandora’s box? Remember George Brett’s pine tar bat game? He hit a home run with a bat with too much pine tar, and a 5-4 lead in the ninth was changed to a 4-3 win for the Yankees. The Royals protested and the league agreed with them. They got to replay the last 4 outs of the game, and the Royals got to keep the win. The right thing to do and the right call. [/QUOTE] Now, just to be fair, the Pine Tar Game, despite what some posters have said, was not a case of the league overruling a judgment call. It was a **protest**. There had been lots of protests prior to the Pine Tar Game (not on that specific rule, but on other interpretations) and what the AL did was consistent with established practice. (There was a protest accepted a few years after that, too, concerning a game called for rain that shouldn’t have been.) Furthermore, the league was, at least in my reading of the rules, totally correct in the pine tar incident; the ump called Brett out despite the fact that nothing in the rules said a player could be called out for that. Selig reversing a judgment call, however, would have been wholly unprecedented. He still should have done it, I believe, but it wasn’t equivalent to the Pine Tar Game. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/72 "2010-06-06T15:26:47Z")
[On CNBC](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1284063/Why-women-arent-charge-sports-U-S-TV-presenter-shocks-viewers-sexist-comment.html) Erin Burnett: “I thought it was handled so beautifully that it was a more memorable moment for its failure perhaps than its success, I don’t know, maybe a little sentimental.” Mark Haines: “See, this is why women aren’t in charge of sports.” Sexist? Perhaps. But I don’t think he’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/73 "2010-06-07T00:20:52Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But Bud is a toad… Remember George Brett’s pine tar bat game? He hit a home run with a bat with too much pine tar, and a 5-4 lead in the ninth was changed to a 4-3 win for the Yankees… > Gah! I hate stupid people. Bud Selig is stupid people. And you can’t fix stupid. I can’t help wondering what Bud Selig must think of people who profess not to understand the difference between a (questionable) judgment call and a mis-application of the rules. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/74 "2010-06-07T02:34:42Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > It is human bias. > > You’re giving more weight to THAT particular incorrect call vs all the previous incorrect calls in that particular game AND all the previous calls of previous games before that. That’s bias. > > It looks like you do see scenarios of possible alternate timelines… however, for some reason, you’ve placed an artificial boundary at the 27th batter vs the 28th batter of that ONE GAME. One could easily be arbitrary in a different way and simply say the boundary isn’t actually the “game”, it’s actually the World Series season. > > If you give less weight to incorrect calls in the middle of the game vs the end of the game, then another person could easily give less weight to the **outcome of individual games** (even though teams win-loss will affect their seedings in the postseason) in favor of reversing calls only in the World Series. > > Isn’t different possible postseason seedings (and possible World Series champions) another valid case of “alternate history?” > > Also as **Buck Godot** astutely pointed out, if the runner was actually safe and incorrectly called out, people wouldn’t be screaming at Bud Selig to strip Galarraga of his perfect game. That’s also human bias. That you speak of postseason “seedings,” a term that is never used in Major League Baseball, tells me you don’t know much about the sport. That you can’t see a difference between the 27th out of a ball game and all the outs that have preceded it in terms of “alternate timelines” – despite a clear explanation – confirms it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/75 "2010-06-07T09:51:02Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > That you can’t see a difference between the 27th out of a ball game and all the outs that have preceded it in terms of “alternate timelines” – despite a clear explanation – confirms it. I’ve heard several justifications for reversing the call and awarding Galarraga a perfect game and I can agree with some of them but I don’t agree with your particular reason as you’ve laid it out because it’s a mess of inconsistent logic. At least some of the other pundits admit some level of human bias in their defense of Galaragga. However, for some reason, you deny your human bias and continue to believe your explanation is a magnificent example of an airtight proof. It is not. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/76 "2010-06-07T11:54:57Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > That you speak of postseason “seedings,” a term that is never used in Major League Baseball, tells me you don’t know much about the sport. Well that’s funny. Here’s an [SI article](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/10/07/playoff.seedings/index.html) with the title: _ **American League dominates my 2009 playoff-team seedings** _ The fact that the seedings are automatically determined (based on record), doesn’t mean that the playoffs aren’t seeded. The term may not be overly common, but it’s a perfectly acceptable way to talk about how they determine who plays who and who has home field for the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/77 "2010-06-07T13:12:10Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > The fact that the seedings are automatically determined (based on record), doesn’t mean that the playoffs aren’t seeded. The term may not be overly common… That’s an understatement. In a lifetime of following baseball, I have never heard this term used. Not once. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/78 "2010-06-07T13:34:16Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > I’ve heard several justifications for reversing the call and awarding Galarraga a perfect game and I can agree with some of them but I don’t agree with your particular reason as you’ve laid it out because it’s a mess of inconsistent logic. At least some of the other pundits admit some level of human bias in their defense of Galaragga. However, for some reason, you deny your human bias and continue to believe your explanation is a magnificent example of an airtight proof. It is not. I’m not sure what sort of “gotcha” moment you believe you’ve introduced to the argument with your term “human bias,” and I don’t really care. I don’t deny the term; I ignore it as irrelevant. Baseball fans are most certainly human, after all. The ruling should be changed “for the good of the game” (a power that the Commissioner can wield at any time, if only he has the guts…not something we’ll see in the course of the present commissioner’s term). Your arguments against mine are, IMHO, “a mess” and add nothing to the discussion. What happened on the field in real life (as opposed to what was called), at that particular juncture of the game, in the context of the history of baseball, is more than enough justification for changing the ruling. Your references to “alternate timelines” and “artificial boundaries between the 27th and 28th batters” are nothing but obfuscating bulllshit. Unlike any AB that may have preceded it, if the 27th batter in a perfect game makes an out and it is called correctly by the umpire, there IS no 28th batter. In a perfect game, a correct call on the 27th out takes on a greater importance – not only greater than any previous call in that game, but also a greater importance than it would in almost any other game, when Major League history is not on the line. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/79 "2010-06-07T13:42:47Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > That’s an understatement. In a lifetime of following baseball, I have never heard this term used. Not once. Nor I. And all it means is having Game 7 at home, if it gets that far. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769/80 "2010-06-07T14:57:07Z")
[Phil Rogers](http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sc-spt-0606-notes-rogers-baseball--20100605,0,3642396.column) from the Chicago Tribune this weekend argues against reversing the call. Though I don’t buy the “slippery slope” argument (the Commissioner can say NO to any and all subsequent requests, if he has a spine), I like and respect Rogers and can agree to disagree with him and anyone who holds this view. But this first sentence of the article speaks volumes to me: > [@](#): > > For whatever reason, some issues resonate louder with fans than those in the game. Whether Bud Selig made the correct decision in this particular case is a matter of opinion, but this points out what I feel has been Selig’s biggest problem during his tenure: He has a tin ear when it comes to listening and understanding what the _fans_ want. Without fans there’s no league, and Selig has always had an uncanny knack for alienating us time and time again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armando-galarraga-a-perfect-solution-is-to-make-it-perfect/541769.md?page=3)