# Armed Police Helicopters-Illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 18, 2002, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281 "2002-11-18T06:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thomasroche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@thomasroche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thomasroche)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/21 "2016-01-23T01:29:24Z")
When the Coast Guard is in pursuit of a suspected smuggler within US waters, I believe they use an anti-materiel rifle fired from a helicopter to disable the engine block. Here are two officer-involved shootings by US police snipers shooting from helicopters, one in CA, the other in TX. Both were firing on vehicles. In the Texas case, the suspect was unarmed. In both cases, again, these were snipers, not rack-mounted air-to-ground weapons or nose turrets. California Incident: [POLICE SNIPER SHOOTS SUSPECT FROM HELICOPTER DURING HIGH SPEED CHASE IN SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY. - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y43EooZeTkM) Texas Incident: [The Human Cost of the Border Security Buildup](http://www.texasobserver.org/human-cost-border-security-build-up/) ---
**Author:** ![Zach29](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Zach29](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zach29)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/22 "2016-01-23T01:50:35Z")
I have read of some instances where the police fired from a helicopter: > **[Carjacking suspect dies after San Bernardino deputies shoot at him from...](https://www.kpcc.org/news/2015/09/18/54512/suspect-who-led-deputies-in-harrowing-chase-dies/)** > > A carjacking suspect who drove on the wrong side of the freeway in San Bernardino on Friday afternoon was killed after officers fired on him from a helicopter. During a high speed chase, in which the car was going the wrong direction on the freeway, the police helicopter came down to try to stop the vehicle. The suspect then jumped out of the vehicle and began to run from the police on the ground, but his vehicle continued going down the highway and collided head-on with another vehicle (the occupants of that car were later taken to a hospital). The police tried to assert that because the suspect had been going over 100 miles per hour trying to evade police, the shooting was needed to prevent “more injuries to the public,” despite the fact that the suspect had already exited his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/23 "2016-01-23T02:10:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Hunting from an aircraft is, indeed, not permitted [Except, apparently, in Alaska.](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/09/aerial_wolf_gunning_101.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/24 "2016-01-23T02:46:38Z")
> [@thomasroche](#): > > It would be ludicrous to assume that just because a copter pilot has a sidearm, that means he or she would just haul his piece out and start shooting at a suspect on the ground – in the case of a single-pilot copter, presumably WHILE still piloting the copter. There’s a very quick shot in _Terminator 2_ when the T-1000 is chasing them with the helicopter. It shows how he has temporarily ‘sprouted’ a third arm in order to both fly the chopper and reload his weapon. Though actually I think he’d need four arms because I’m pretty sure a chopper pilot has his left hand on the collective lever at all times. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/25 "2016-01-23T02:55:51Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > There’s a very quick shot in _Terminator 2_ when the T-1000 is chasing them with the helicopter. It shows how he has temporarily ‘sprouted’ a third arm in order to both fly the chopper and reload his weapon. Though actually I think he’d need four arms because I’m pretty sure a chopper pilot has his left hand on the collective lever at all times. Former Army Huey pilot, With the trim on in level flight one may not need a hand on the collective at all times but in the movie situation yes for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/26 "2016-01-23T03:18:14Z")
> [@aeropl](#): > > It is illegal for the military (who operates Apache helicopters) to perform domestic police duties. Ever hear of the National Guard? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/27 "2016-01-23T05:10:02Z")
People hunt wild pigs in the Southwest with long & short guns from helios and small planes all the time. Usually the passengers, the pilots mostly tend to the ‘don’t hit the ground, trees, wires with the flying machine’ stuff. Coyotes have been hunted from the air for years. Some of the pilots got excited and forgot to fly the air machines. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/28 "2016-01-23T06:16:20Z")
I’m doubtful of the practicality of accurate sniping from a moving chopper at a moving vehicle with a hand held rifle. I don’t consider “blazing away” to be “accurate sniping”. And I’ve had some experience sitting in the back of a slick (aka Huey aka UH-1D). I suppose it’d be possible to put a .50 cal or 25mm round into an engine from a chin turret with all sorts of gyro stabilization and electronic sights. When I was in the Coast Guard, I got assigned to the Law Enforcement Boarding Team. There weren’t that many guys on the cutter with a CIB. Depending on which was most due for a complete strip down and cleaning, the warning shots were fired from either the pintle mounted .50 M-2 or the 20mm. If that didn’t convince them to stop, well, there was some debate there between the GMC (Chief Gunner’s Mate) and the Warrant GM. One side was shooting the second warning burst into the bridge. On the other hand, there was firing into the engines too. Of course, with the cigarette boats, well, it was really smarter for them to just heave too, you know? The decision was above my pay grade, I was getting geared up to board the lifeboat to cross over and board the boat once it had stopped anyway - I was on the other side of the cutter. But I did board boats that needed convincing. I guess it boils down to state and municipal laws. And insurance. I think the liability risks for a local police department would be astronomical. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/29 "2016-01-23T06:34:56Z")
NASA’s SWAT Team has helicopter-mounted machine guns. So, the answer to the OP is nope. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/30 "2016-01-23T07:23:01Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > NASA’s SWAT Team has helicopter-mounted machine guns. So, the answer to the OP is nope. why the hell does NASA need a SWAT team? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/31 "2016-01-23T07:41:04Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > why the hell does NASA need a SWAT team? Lots of federal agencies have their own police departments\* to handle police issues on their property, and it’s normal for a police department to have a SWAT team. And NASA has a lot of valuable stuff, sometimes with national security implications, so it’s not really surprising that their police department would be one of the better-armed ones. \*There’s even an “FBI Police” that does nothing but police the facilities of the FBI, which is itself a federal law enforcement agency. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/32 "2016-01-23T13:46:53Z")
[NASA SWAT team](http://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/main/swat_feature.html) [Why does NASA need a SWAT team? To steal moon dust from retirees!](http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/why-does-nasa-need-a-swat-team-to-steal-moon-dust-from-retirees/) ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/33 "2016-01-23T16:28:16Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > Kinda surprising, but you are allowed to drop objects from aircraft. > > [FAR 91.15](http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/AD2EBDA6370BB404852566CF0061287A?OpenDocument) Back in the mid-80s the Philadelphia police dropped a time-bomb on a house to evict radical pains-in-the-ass terrorizing the street. The resulting fire BURNED DOWN THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD! [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8eHpRjxk7N4/hqdefault.jpg "The Bombing of West Philly - 5/13/85") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eHpRjxk7N4) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/34 "2016-01-23T16:44:34Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > When that nutball stole that tank and went on a rampage crushing cars etc. the police were absolutely helpless. > > Had it gone on longer and/or had the guy killed a bunch of people (amazingly, no one died except him) I’d like to think that whoever was in charge could have (and **would** have) gotten an Apache scrambled to the scene. A couple dozen depleted Uranium rounds would have made short order of the guy without much danger to the public. Just a point of order, as one who has been around AH-64’s during my life (civilian, not military). The Apache does not shoot Depleted Uranium rounds; the M230 30mm Chain Gun fires High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) rounds, useful for ground suppression and light vehicles; same for the 2.75" rockets, although they come in various types. The tank killer in this case would be the AGM-114 HELLFIRE Missile, which is laser guided and capable of taking out a tank, if you don’t mind the subsequent explosion/blast wave/shrapnel… Press on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/35 "2016-01-23T16:59:45Z")
For what it’s worth, “ordinarily not allowed” could refer to just departmental policy, not necessarily an actual law. In that case, all it’d take to get an exception would be the chief’s say-so. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/36 "2016-01-25T22:15:17Z")
> [@aeropl](#): > > It is illegal for the military (who operates Apache helicopters) to perform domestic police duties. I don’t know if there would be an exception to the rule because the tank was stolen from the military. Anybody else know? _Posse Comitatus_ applies. The Army and Air Force are specifically prevented from engaging in domestic law enforcement (other than disaster recovery, providing emergency supplies, or consultation). In 2009, US Army MPs were deployed for Ft. Rucker to Samson, Alabama to assist with a murder spree. They assisted with things like traffic control and such. Because the governor did not request them, and the President did not authorize, several officers received slaps on the wrist for violating the Posse Comitatus Act. National Guard Units are exempted, since they are tools of the states. When I worked on the WTC Recovery, there was no regular military there - only National Guard units from every darn part of the state. When I worked in Federal law enforcement, we always had a few intel analysts TechOps guys on hand; unarmed doing intelligence stuff and and making sure our Special Agents didn’t steal our surveillance equipment. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/37 "2016-01-25T22:26:45Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Innocent until proven guilty applies _all the time_ in a court of law. It’s called due process and it’s a right guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment. I know this is a really old post and all, but the presumption of innocence and due process are not the same thing. The presumption derives from English common law, though it is one of the rights protected by the Due Process Clause. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/38 "2016-01-25T23:07:42Z")
As a couple of people have pointed out police do fire from helicopters, though the practice is [controversial](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/us/outrage-in-texas-after-airborne-police-sharpshooter-kills-2-immigrants.html) (rightly IMO). I can’t see how that would be legal and a gun mounted on the helicopter itself would be illegal. Though politically would be a much harder sell. In the same way as British troops were sent to Northern Ireland they replaced their tracked troop carriers with wheeled ones, so they were “sending tanks onto the streets”, despite the fact there is no real difference between tracked and wheel military vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/39 "2016-01-25T23:30:29Z")
As someone else mentioned, police departments probably do not want/need the extra hassle and expense of operating actual gunships. Something like the [Coast Guard’s HITRON](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_Interdiction_Tactical_Squadron) helicopters, though, could be incorporated for SWAT support. These have the advantage that you can still use the aircraft for the police’s more frequent patrol/transport/rescue missions by leaving the guns behind. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I’d like to think that whoever was in charge could have (and **would** have) gotten an Apache scrambled to the scene. Except the National Guard’s AH64’s _in those states that have them_, are not sitting around all over the place on ready alert status for an anti-tank strike. It may take you most of the day to “scramble” a response, maybe a little quicker for states who have A-10s in their Air National Guard inventory but still – and if you were to ignore Posse Comitatus restrictions the units from the regular forces are quite spread apart and it may take them a while to get there. If you’re lucky you \*may \*have a nearby NG infantry/combat engineers unit that _may_ have portable AT missiles or mines in its armory you can get moving in a couple of hours, but in any of those cases do you really want to be taking those kinds of shots in civilian residential neighborhoods? [quote=“Enola\_Straight, post:33, topic:137281”] Back in the mid-80s the Philadelphia police dropped a time-bomb on a house to evict radical pains-in-the-ass terrorizing the street. The resulting fire BURNED DOWN THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD! [/QUOTE] Yeah, I remember that one. It was one of those "wait, they did WHAT?? they can \*DO\* that???" moments. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281/40 "2016-01-26T09:51:26Z")
> [@thomasroche](#): > > Cartooniverse, the original question was about armed police choppers, not whether the pilots of police choppers are armed. > > I assume by “wear their loaded firearms,” you mean they’re wearing sidearms. > > It would be ludicrous to assume that just because a copter pilot has a sidearm, that means he or she would just haul his piece out and start shooting at a suspect on the ground – in the case of a single-pilot copter, presumably WHILE still piloting the copter. > > Sidearms fired from a helicopter would be spray-and-pray. > > That’s different than a police copter carrying a trained police sniper with an appropriate long arm. Welcome to the straight dope, **thomasroche** , you should note that the discussion you revived is 14 years old, although apparently still a crowd pleaser. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-police-helicopters-illegal/137281.md?page=3)