# Armed school personnel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301 "2012-12-17T13:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/41 "2012-12-17T19:52:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. This is one of the downsides: how many good teachers would quit due to yet another onerous requirement, this one anathema to many folks? I’m on the fence about whether we need much stricter restrictions on handgun ownership, but I’m not at all on the fence about whether I need to be carrying. I don’t, and I won’t. > > The cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech, but the cure for the ills of guns in school is not more guns in school. I would refuse to carry as part of my job as a teacher. I don’t need the added layer of responsibility. If you are armed as part of the job, then there is a presumption that you are an armed responder. If I wanted to be an armed responder, I’d still be a deputy sheriff. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/42 "2012-12-17T20:02:31Z")
I would think that simply having an armed security guard in a school would not add a great amount of protection. By the time they were able to respond, a deranged shooter would already have caused a lot of death. It has happened this way in the past, even when there was a responder not that far away; many deaths still occurred. So it seem that by arming “school personnel”, you’d have to be talking about teachers. A lot of teachers. This leads me to believe that absent any other solutions to the problem (increased mental health budgets, mandatory training) this “solution” of more armed people in the school will lead to: - More guns available for teachers, their spouses or children to commit suicide with - An increase in accidental shootings - Additional guns stolen in home break ins - More guns available close to hand in domestic violence situations, leading to more deaths - More guns available to the mentally ill children of teachers, who may just use them to shoot up the very schools the guns were supposed to protect Overall, would the benefits of increasing the number of guns outweigh the costs? I for one don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/43 "2012-12-17T20:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] I would think that simply having an armed security guard in a school would not add a great amount of protection. By the time they were able to respond, a deranged shooter would already have caused a lot of death. It has happened this way in the past, even when there was a responder not that far away; many deaths still occurred. [/QUOTE] It would have a deterrent effect, assuming it was widely known. These guys attack schools because they know they can do so pretty much with impunity. You notice that generally these sorts of attacks don’t happen at a police station? I think it’s pretty much a given that if you wanted to spend the money on an armed security force (hell, just one armed guy and a bunch of video cameras) you could prevent many of these random shootings at schools. The trouble is, it would cost the world and what would you really be preventing? A few dozen shootings on average a year? Less? > [@](#): > > So it seem that by arming “school personnel”, you’d have to be talking about teachers. A lot of teachers. Yeah, I don’t think that would be a good idea, personally. Half trained teachers wouldn’t be my first choice for arming at a school. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/44 "2012-12-17T20:59:39Z")
Look, the point is the more guns there are, the safer everybody is. That’s why prison guards carry guns inside the prison! That’s why Marines keep weapons in the barracks! If it works for them, why wouldn’t it work for teachers in a classroom? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/45 "2012-12-17T21:11:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It would have a deterrent effect, assuming it was widely known. These guys attack schools because they know they can do so pretty much with impunity. You notice that generally these sorts of attacks don’t happen at a police station? Or fire stations. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/46 "2012-12-17T21:16:47Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Look, the point is the more guns there are, the safer everybody is. > > That’s why prison guards carry guns inside the prison! > > That’s why Marines keep weapons in the barracks! > > If it works for them, why wouldn’t it work for teachers in a classroom? - More guns available for teachers, their spouses or children to commit suicide with - An increase in accidental shootings - Additional guns stolen in home break ins - More guns available close to hand in domestic violence situations, leading to more deaths - More guns available to the mentally ill children of teachers, who may just use them to shoot up the very schools the guns were supposed to protect Essentially, the introduction of more guns will lead to an overall increase in bad things, not a decrease. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/47 "2012-12-17T21:28:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Look, the point is the more guns there are, the safer everybody is. > > That’s why prison guards carry guns inside the prison! > > That’s why Marines keep weapons in the barracks! > > If it works for them, why wouldn’t it work for teachers in a classroom? This is exactly why I sleep on top of a pile of guns every night. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/48 "2012-12-17T21:39:31Z")
> **[Armed Teachers stop Terrorist Attack in Israel](http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/01/armed-teachers-stop-terrorist-attack-in.html?m=1)** > > A dramatic story can be found here : Two Palestinian terrorists disguised in Israel Defense Forces (IDF) uniforms entered the study hall at ... ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/49 "2012-12-17T21:53:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In 2009, a gunman named Nidal Malik Hasan killed 12 and injured 31 at Fort Hood army base in Texas. If the presence of guns actually prevents gun violence, one is obligated to wonder why these things occurred. Personnel on an Army base are not armed. In fact, that is an area of town with the lowest concentration of armed citizens. The only place around town I can’t be armed is on an Army base. Ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/50 "2012-12-17T21:53:50Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > [John Lott's Website: Armed Teachers stop Terrorist Attack in Israel](http://johnrlott.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/armed-teachers-stop-terrorist-attack-in.html?m=1) Israel also has fairly [strict gun ownership rules](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-militarized-society-israels-strict-gun-laws-keep-civilian-violence-down) and limits civilians to owning 50 rounds of ammo. You can’t just assume we can arm teachers and everything’s A-OK. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/51 "2012-12-17T22:13:13Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Israel also has fairly [strict gun ownership rules](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-militarized-society-israels-strict-gun-laws-keep-civilian-violence-down) and limits civilians to owning 50 rounds of ammo. You can’t just assume we can arm teachers and everything’s A-OK. I’m having a difficult time reconciling your cite, with images of settlers walking around with—presumably—full auto Uzis and Galils. One magazine for those weapons would eat up over half of your stated ammunition limit. Am I seeing pictures of deputized, or the equivalent, individuals and that’s how they’re able to carry those weapons? **Alessan** , can you shed light on this? Edit: Arg! It pays to read further: > [@](#): > > In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there, may own pistols for self-defense. I guess a mini-Uzi’s a pistol… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/52 "2012-12-17T22:34:33Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Am I seeing pictures of deputized, or the equivalent, individuals and that’s how they’re able to carry those weapons? Essentially. I think that some small Israeli towns have armories, and the town Security Officer - the civilian in charge of the town’s defense - can issue weapons to residents. I don’t really know how it works, specifically. I lived on a kibbutz for a few months when I was 18, and I remember certain occasions involving outdoor events (hikes, celebrations) when a few of the members were issued Uzis and M-1 carbines for security purposes. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/53 "2012-12-18T00:15:32Z")
Unrepentant liberal (‘60s hippy model), gun owner, and former high school teacher here. I’d like to at least further explore the hypothetical. First though I’ll say that it seems the real problem, and the real solution if any, is societal. We seem to have abandoned much of our shared social contract, especially the feelings of empathy for our neighbors and the fear of shame if we were publicly caught doing anything “wrong”. Neither the schools I attended nor the ones I taught in had guns in such casual contact as those cited upthread, but I’m sure this was merely a geographic difference. I think the feelings of societal obligation felt by all of us in that generation, in areas where guns were common as well as those where they were not, was still similar. We were all horrified at the idea of “getting caught” doing anything against the rules. This went as much for improper use or display of firearms as for stealing the Dean’s favorite hat. And that just isn’t the way our society or our schools seems to work today. But that is the subject of a different thread. For this one, I’ll say that any actual reduction of mass school shootings is going to be marginal at best. Short of creating bunker schools, nothing will prevent one crazy motha from forcing access and beginning a killing spree. And I do not want all or even most teachers to assume the role, and the liability, of becoming armed security. I’d recoil against that myself, and I like guns. But I expect that in any school, as in any population outside a school, there are likely to be at least a few folks who might take on a limited role, if properly trained and supported. So what if we solicited a few volunteers from the staff. Not just teachers but administrators, clinicians, even custodial or maintenance staff might be eligible. Provide them with serious training in firearms handling, shooting, conflict resolution, recognition of threats, legal obligations, and all the other things we would want in a security guard if employed from outside. Include a psychiatric evaluation. Make the whole thing pass / fail with a high bar so not just any enthusiastic cop wanna-be could qualify. Then once we have a person or persons in the school who are willing to accept this burden, we _still don’t actually arm them_ or allow them to carry arms. Instead we install lock boxes in a few selected locations around campus, each box containing a gun identical to the one our people qualified with. And maybe a Taser too. High security boxes, perhaps finger print accessible. (I’m guessing that if push ever came to shove, quick access without fumbling for a pass code would be preferable.) Equipped with video surveillance cameras on constant display in, say, the Principal’s office so tampering would be immediately known. And also equipped with serious alarms, visual and auditory plus a police monitor tie-in, so that all hell would break loose if a box was opened. Apparently in this and other school shootings there were some staff who approached the sound of gunfire, and others who attempted to hide or otherwise secure the students. Our trained person(s) could decide for themselves, should such a fateful day arrive, how they wished to respond. If they chose to hide with their students, or run out the doors, there should be no recriminations. They would be under no obligation to do differently. They would not be, after all, dedicated security guards. But if they wished, if they thought their armed intercession might make a difference, they might choose to open a box. And then, Og help them, we could only hope for the best. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/54 "2012-12-18T00:34:29Z")
My sister-in-law was assistant manager at a bank that was robbed twice by the same guy. The first time he came in, waved a gun, and left with all the money in the cash drawers. The bank hired off-duty police officers to act as armed guards. The next time that guy robbed the bank, he knew about the cop, so he walked in with gun drawn, shot and killed the cop, and left with all the money in the cash drawers. The drawback to the idea of arming teachers is that the teachers are at a severe tactical disadvantage. Either the gunman fires first with surprise, killing them, or the gunman comes ready to handle teachers who have a sidearm, who now find themselves with a revolver or semi-automatic pistol and a magazine or two against a guy who’s brought multiple weapons and is wearing body armor because he expects people to shoot back. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/55 "2012-12-18T00:43:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Essentially, the introduction of more guns will lead to an overall increase in bad things, not a decrease. Explain to me why this is true for every other segment of society but not for police officers. Doesn’t more armed police result in: - More guns available for police, their spouses or children to commit suicide with - An increase in accidental shootings - Additional guns stolen in home break ins - More guns available close to hand in domestic violence situations, leading to more deaths - More guns available to the mentally ill children of police, who may just use them to shoot up the very schools the guns were supposed to protect. Police in Britain are usually unarmed except for special response squads; let’s try that here in the US! I’m sure the police will overwhelming support that proposal. I’ll reiterate the point of the OP: what makes everyone else incompetent to own and carry guns but somehow not police officers? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/56 "2012-12-18T01:04:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Explain to me why this is true for every other segment of society but not for police officers. Doesn’t more armed police result in: I would think that police are better trained, on the whole, compared with the general population, and would therefore keep their weapons stored more safely. I certainly think that there should be MUCH better required training before any member of the general public is able to purchase a weapon whose prime function is to kill another human being. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Police in Britain are usually unarmed except for special response squads; let’s try that here in the US! I’m sure the police will overwhelming support that proposal. This would not work because of the overwhelming number of weapons currently in existence in the US, including military grade. And of course that pesky constitutional thing. So no, this would not work. > [@Lumpy](#): > > I’ll reiterate the point of the OP: what makes everyone else incompetent to own and carry guns but somehow not police officers? Training? Not only in how to use firearms, but in the law, when to use them, how to avoid using them, etc. etc. Were you under the impression that they just hire police off the street and issue them a sidearm? Do you propose that teachers should also be given the same training as a police officer? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/57 "2012-12-18T01:10:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Explain to me why this is true for every other segment of society but not for police officers. Doesn’t more armed police result in: > > - More guns available for police, their spouses or children to commit suicide with > - An increase in accidental shootings > - Additional guns stolen in home break ins > - More guns available close to hand in domestic violence situations, leading to more deaths I’m sure it does ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/58 "2012-12-18T01:25:31Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would think that police are better trained, on the whole, compared with the general population, and would therefore keep their weapons stored more safely. [Act 120 Police Certification.](http://www.lackawanna.edu/police/Training/act120.html) Universities and colleges all over Pennsylvania offer very similar programs. It started 10 or more years ago, but intensified as the economy grew worse, that police departments didn’t want to hire untrained people and then have them getting paid while they were at the academy. Pre-trained only, thank you. Hence, the birth of academies like the one to which I linked. Note that the whole entire program is only 750 hours. Only a small fraction of that is anything to do with guns. What they receive at academy is all the training many cops will ever get. I’ve said it before in these threads. The public has a habit of grossly overestimating the amount of training cops receive with guns and their general level of competence with same. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/59 "2012-12-18T01:39:17Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’ve said it before in these threads. The public has a habit of grossly overestimating the amount of training cops receive with guns and their general level of competence with same. I noticed that when I earlier I asked: > [@](#): > > at what level of training is a citizen unqualified to carry a firearm transformed into a police officer who is? and **Czarcasm** responded: > [@](#): > > The kind of training that would give a teacher the capability to make a successful head shot of a below-medium-size moving target wearing a bullet-proof vest with chidren running around, a moving tartget with a couple of handguns that will see you as a threat and doesn’t care who else he hits as he sprays gunfire in your general direction. IOW, he proposed that you have to be a gun ninja to match the professional training of police. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301/60 "2012-12-18T02:41:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I noticed that when I earlier I asked:and **Czarcasm** responded “The kind of training that would give a teacher the capability to make a successful head shot of a below-medium-size moving target wearing a bullet-proof vest with chidren running around, a moving tartget with a couple of handguns that will see you as a threat and doesn’t care who else he hits as he sprays gunfire in your general direction.” > > IOW, he proposed that you have to be a gun ninja to match the professional training of police. :rolleyes: I actually know someone who shoots well enough that he could probably do what **Czarcasm** proposed. He has a blazingly fast draw, and is extremely accurate. The irony is, he’s not a cop or a soldier. He’s a high school science teacher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armed-school-personnel/644301.md?page=4)