# Armenian genocide: open and shut case, or no? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600 "2011-06-15T20:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/1 "2011-06-15T20:21:03Z")
I always thought I had a relative understanding of the Armenian genocide. Or, at least, that it happened. But there was a poster campaign at my university, presumably by Turkish students or Turkish community members, which was stating that the Armenian genocide was a “fabrication,” was “grossly exaggerated,” and that “reputable scholars” (all Turkish, by the sounds of their names) had serious doubts about what transpired. Now, I would normally not give these sorts of claims a second thought. Obviously if you said any of these things about the Holocaust, you would be branded a bigot and an anti-semite. And rightly so. These posters would have never been allowed up by the student government of my school (despite their many failings…:rolleyes:). But I simply don’t know enough beyond a quick wikipedia reading of what happened to the Armenians from 1917 onwards. It seems the argument from Turkish scholars is that Armenians were Russian allies, and treated as enemy combatants? Is that a fair assessment? Is there any reason to doubt the sincerity of claims of an Armenian genocide, or their severity, or anything else regarding this moment in history? I suspect there’s no clearcut answer, but I’m wondering if there’s any sort of intellectual consensus, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/2 "2011-06-15T22:30:27Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > I always thought I had a relative understanding of the Armenian genocide. Or, at least, that it happened. > > But there was a poster campaign at my university, presumably by Turkish students or Turkish community members, which was stating that the Armenian genocide was a “fabrication,” was “grossly exaggerated,” and that “reputable scholars” (all Turkish, by the sounds of their names) had serious doubts about what transpired. > > Is there any reason to doubt the sincerity of claims of an Armenian genocide, or their severity, or anything else regarding this moment in history? I suspect there’s no clearcut answer, but I’m wondering if there’s any sort of intellectual consensus, I suppose. Let’s put it this way: it may not have been a _successful_ genocide. Armenians still exist, though not many, and they’ve been destroyed as a notable ethnic group. Twas was worse than (Martin van Buren’s) Trail of Tears\*. It wasn’t exactly genocide in the sense that the Turks were specifically out to kill all Armenians. They were equally fine with them being destroyed in many other ways. It may not have been all that personal, either: the Turks might have eliminated many other groups had they been available. Most non-Turkish peoples in the era preferred Russian hegemony to Turkish tyranny. The Turkish state wasn’t capable of a Nazi-style complete elimination, and it didn’t try. What it did do was make damn sure the Armenians would never, ever bother them again, and to this day has tried to eliminate the very memory of them. Whether you consider that genocide is a matter of definition. I call it evil regardless. \*Without getting into the Andrew Jackson issue, I would note that he was probably far less racist than most contemporaries, and had no problem with several other AmerIndian groups. Van Buren, on the other hand, was a complete jerk all around. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/3 "2011-06-15T23:37:10Z")
Yes, it was genocide. Or attempted. Unfortunately, the Turkish government refuses to acknowledge it. The American government sort of recognizes American Indian genocide without calling it such. Europeans and America also recognize the Holocaust while downplaying their knowledge (and sometimes active role) of it while it was happening. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/4 "2011-06-16T00:18:37Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > But there was a poster campaign at my university, presumably by Turkish students or Turkish community members, which was stating that the Armenian genocide was a “fabrication,” was “grossly exaggerated,” and that “reputable scholars” (all Turkish, by the sounds of their names) had serious doubts about what transpired. I am married to a Turk and have talked to a lot of well-educated Turks. Almost uniformly they are taught and continue to believe that what occurred in the time leading to the Turkish War of Independence and the formation of the Turkish Republic was not at all genocide. It is regarded as civil war and this statement is usually followed by mentioning the large number of Turkish civilians that died at the time. Since it is so culturally ingrained I doubt you can convince many Turks that it was anything but civil war. [This website seems to have a very nice summary given what I know of the facts](http://www.armenian-history.com/Nyuter/HISTORY/ARMENIA20/armenian_genocide.htm). I sincerely doubt the Turkish Republic will ever recognize the genocide and I am always a bit embarrassed when our Congress brings up the topic because it is utterly useless (except for votes). I also get a bit confused because the two main instigators of this genocide were punished (Enver and Talaat Pasha) for their crimes and if the country that committed the atrocity is gone, if the leaders who ordered the atrocity are gone, then what is the benefit of continuing to discuss it? **Smiling Bandit** : Do you have even the slightest shred of evidence that “to this day [the Turkish state] has tried to eliminate the very memory of them”? That statement has no basis in fact from my experience and is slightly absurd because the Ottoman Empire is not the Turkish State. A further question: Why is it “unfortunate” that the Turkish government does not recognize the genocide? Other than weakened ties with Armenia, who cares what the Turks call it? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/5 "2011-06-16T00:23:24Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I also get a bit confused because the two main instigators of this genocide were punished (Enver and Talaat Pasha) for their crimes and if the country that committed the atrocity is gone, if the leaders who ordered the atrocity are gone, then what is the benefit of continuing to discuss it? I wouldn’t say it’s gone. The government changed, but the people and culture mostly remain. > [@](#): > > **Smiling Bandit** : Do you have even the slightest shred of evidence that “to this day [the Turkish state] has tried to eliminate the very memory of them”? That statement has no basis in fact from my experience and is slightly absurd because the Ottoman Empire is not the Turkish State. I’ve read and continue to see a number of statements, official and otherwise, minimizing the existence, sufferings, and fate of the Armenians. > [@](#): > > A further question: Why is it “unfortunate” that the Turkish government does not recognize the genocide? Other than weakened ties with Armenia, who cares what the Turks call it? Because what is right, is right, and ought always to be encouraged. What is wrong, is wrong, and ought to be discouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/6 "2011-06-16T00:32:15Z")
The Master did a column on the subject: > **[Was there genocide in early 20th century Armenia?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343720/was-there-genocide-in-early-20th-century-armenia)** > [@](#): > > After years of low-level harassment by the Ottoman regime, the first large-scale killings took place from 1894 through 1896, when by conservative estimate 200,000 Armenians died, half murdered by Ottoman forces and the balance dying in the subsequent chaos. The “starving Armenians” became a cause celebre among European and U.S. humanitarians. (Sixty years later your columnist’s guilt-tripping great aunts were still admonishing their young relations to eat their veggies because the starving Armenians didn’t have any.) To no avail — the British government found the Ottomans a useful ally against the Russians and refused to impose sanctions. > > When a 1908 revolt by the Young Turks, secular modernizers with a support base in the Turkish army, forced the Ottoman sultan to cede power to a constitutional government, the Armenians thought they might get a break, but the new nationalist leaders proved no more tolerant than the old religious ones. A massacre of 15,000 to 25,000 Armenians in 1909 set the table for the main event during World War I. Blaming the supposedly disloyal Christian minority for an early defeat by the Russians, the Turkish government starting in 1915 rounded up Armenians throughout the country, murdered vast numbers outright and deported the rest, with many dying on forced marches or in refugee camps. The brutal work was carried out by an elaborate bureaucracy that some historians consider a model for the extermination program of the Nazis. Add in a couple of additional massacres in the early 1920s and the Armenian death toll for 1915-1922 totals a million to a million and a half. Conclusion: It was genocide and Turkish propaganda on the subject is nothing but lies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/7 "2011-06-16T00:34:16Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > A further question: Why is it “unfortunate” that the Turkish government does not recognize the genocide? For one thing, it implies they’d be willing to do something similar again. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/8 "2011-06-16T00:52:21Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Conclusion: It was genocide and Turkish propaganda on the subject is nothing but lies. Indeed, I found the parallels to the Russian pograms of Jews disturbing. I’m not sure I exactly classify this as “genocide” in the technical sense. But it’s no different morally for those who carried him out. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/9 "2011-06-16T00:57:53Z")
I care. I had several relatives who were on those forced marches, but lived through them and made it to America. They’re all dead and gone now, but I’d still like to see their suffering acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/10 "2011-06-16T01:00:53Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Yes, it was genocide. Or attempted. Unfortunately, the Turkish government refuses to acknowledge it. The American government sort of recognizes American Indian genocide without calling it such. > > Europeans and America also recognize the Holocaust while downplaying their knowledge (and sometimes active role) of it while it was happening. Well, to be fair the Holocaust was irrelevant to the goals of WWII. If I was FDR I wouldn’t want the Holocaust sensationalizing things because then you might have public outcry to focus military efforts on freeing people from the camps and etc. I don’t really think that would have happened, but even still the Holocaust while regrettable was irrelevant to the American war effort. Our goal was the destruction of Germany’s ability to wage war and its complete capitulation and occupation, and that was to be followed up with the same for Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/11 "2011-06-16T01:01:27Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I wouldn’t say it’s gone. The government changed, but the people and culture mostly remain. They have ceased to be Ottomans. Every remnant of the Ottoman Empire is all but dead except for fantasies held by an unimportant minority. Even the Kemalism that replaced it is disappearing. Although the food is probably similar. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’ve read and continue to see a number of statements, official and otherwise, minimizing the existence, sufferings, and fate of the Armenians. The numbers in Anatolia are minimized by Turks, true. This does not mean that Turks are trying to erase them. They minimize their historical numbers and have a different story than you and I share over how the Armenians disappeared when they were once everywhere. The Turkish government would still be trading with Armenia if it wasn’t for war with Azerbaijan; they have launched efforts to renew ties. Recently, an incomplete statue being built to honor Turkish/Armenian historical ties and friendship became controversial because many wanted it up while many wanted it torn down. The forces at work are between do nothing and recognize the past; there is no real modern effort to erase them. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Because what is right, is right, and ought always to be encouraged. What is wrong, is wrong, and ought to be discouraged. It’s right but impractical and I would prefer that more important topics of conversation occurred between the USA and Turkey. Pretty much the only time I hear anything out of Congress regarding Turkey is this one issue. The whole freaking Middle East is changing, Turkey is playing a leadership role, Turkey is protecting Syrian civilians and the topic of the day: a nearly 100 year old genocide that if recognized by Turkey would lead to both jack AND shit. It’s just a painful reminder of how utterly lost we are in handling foreign policy in the Middle East. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For one thing, it implies they’d be willing to do something similar again. I see no logical relationship between this willingness and lack of recognition of past atrocities. Also, way to ignore almost everything from 1923 until the germination of real recognition of minorities and their rights that is spreading through the Turkish political culture today. The dominance of the AKP is based partly in this political recognition of minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/12 "2011-06-16T01:55:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For one thing, it implies they’d be willing to do something similar again. Not really. Pretending it never happened implies that they’re ashamed of it, just like admitting it and apologizing. If they admitted it happened, and refused to apologize, _that_ would imply they’d be willing to do it again. That said, since most Turks are completely ignorant of the facts, I guess it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/13 "2011-06-16T02:39:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, to be fair the Holocaust was irrelevant to the goals of WWII. If I was FDR I wouldn’t want the Holocaust sensationalizing things because then you might have public outcry to focus military efforts on freeing people from the camps and etc. I don’t really think that would have happened, but even still the Holocaust while regrettable was irrelevant to the American war effort. > > Our goal was the destruction of Germany’s ability to wage war and its complete capitulation and occupation, and that was to be followed up with the same for Japan. On a domestic front, we were **acting** as though we had some moral imperative. We had no problems sensationalizing Pearl Harbor or the effect the war had on our troops or families. Anyway, we knew about it and did nothing - not even absorb a decent amount of refugees. That was my point. I’m not sure what yours is. edit: Our European allies were also partially responsible for tens of thousands of Jewish deaths. Thanks a lot, _France_. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/14 "2011-06-16T02:51:49Z")
Notable fact: The [Turkish script reform in 1928](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language#Writing_) by Atatürk changed the Arabic script of the Ottoman Empire into the Latin based script used today. Modern Turks can’t read Ottoman records. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/15 "2011-06-16T03:39:58Z")
[Armenian Genocide Denial:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial) > [@](#): > > The denial of the Armenian Genocide is the assertion that the Armenian Genocide did not occur in the manner or to the extent described by scholarship. Denial of the Armenian Genocide is forbidden in some countries. The Armenian Genocide is widely acknowledged by genocide scholars to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[1][2] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[3] > > The Republic of Turkey,[4] as well as the Republic of Azerbaijan,[5] do not accept that the Ottoman authorities attempted to exterminate the Armenian people.[6] Turkish government acknowledges that during World War I many Armenians died, but counters that Muslim Turks died as well, and claims that the number of Armenian victims has been inflated, and that massacres were committed by both sides as a result of inter-ethnic violence and the wider conflict of World War I.[6] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/16 "2011-06-16T04:20:37Z")
Note, for contrast, how there never yet was any **Kurdish** genocide rising to the level of the Armenian (though a few good-faith attempts have been made). [Map of currently Kurdish-inhabited areas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg) This includes southeastern Turkey, where Kurdish nationalists/secessionists have been troublesome for decades. Compare the [Six Armenian Vilayets of the Ottoman Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Armenian_Vilayets) – the provinces that once had a substantial Armenian population. There is some overlap with Kurdistan, plus more territory due north of it almost to the coast; and on the eastern border Ottoman Armenia is contiguous with [Russian Armenia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Armenia) (what is now the independent state of Armenia, more or less). [Armenians in Turkey today](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Turkey) number no more than 70,000. [Linguistic map of Europe, extending as far east as the Caspian.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.taiwandna.com/DutchLanguageMap.png&imgrefurl=http://www.taiwandna.com/ItalianPage.html&h=599&w=733&sz=79&tbnid=Fq9aOYnNHpTazM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=101&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dethnic%2Bmap%2Bof%2Bturkey%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=ethnic+map+of+turkey&hl=en&usg=__LnL0ys84_uKyBPhXBkV8nzl2Cc8=&sa=X&ei=dYL5TYihMYmw0AHlxNXKAw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwBg&dur=273) The Armenian-speaking region is visible and entirely contained within the political borders of independent Armenia. You can see a Kurdish region in Turkey, but no Armenian region. Now, I suggest that if the [Armenian Genocide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide) on the Ottoman side of tbe border had not happened, Turkish Armenia would be as troublesome as Turkish Kurdistan today – the more so, as Russian Armenia is now independent and would have an obvious irredentist claim on the territory. (Plus there might be some border disputes between the Armenians and the Kurds.) But, it isn’t. The territory is now, apparently, thoroughly Turkicized. A very **effective** genocide for which many Turks (and, I guess, Kurds) now living have sound reasons to be grateful. (That such a thing exists should surprise no American.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/17 "2011-06-16T04:22:57Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Notable fact: > > The [Turkish script reform in 1928](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language#Writing_) by Atatürk changed the Arabic script of the Ottoman Empire into the Latin based script used today. > > Modern Turks can’t read Ottoman records. But why did Constantinople get the works? ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/18 "2011-06-16T11:39:44Z")
I think the problem is, Armenians don’t control Hollywood, and feel the need to make a movie every year reminding us - again- how they were done wrong. The thing about the HOlocaust or the Armenian Genocide is that they occurred within a larger attrocity. The sensible rules about decent human behavior went out the window a long time ago. The Ottoman Empire was literally fighting for its existence. There were plans on the table to partition the whole of it amongst the powers. And here you had the Armenians throwing in with them. What did they think was going to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/19 "2011-06-16T12:04:52Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > I think the problem is, Armenians don’t control Hollywood, and feel the need to make a movie every year reminding us - again- how they were done wrong. This is offensive, and it’s of dubious relevance since is whether or not the Ottomans’ actions constitute genocide, not why the deaths of Armenians are less well known than the killings of the Holocaust. Please be more careful about posting something that a great many people see as an ethnic slur. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600/20 "2011-06-16T12:05:12Z")
What did they think was going to happen? That’s really your position? We should all embrace murder as a legitimate political tool? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/armenian-genocide-open-and-shut-case-or-no/585600.md?page=2)