# Arming teachers with guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714 "2015-11-05T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/41 "2015-11-06T08:07:24Z")
It’s about as sensible as getting the 102nd to teach pre-school. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/42 "2015-11-06T09:57:50Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Arming teachers has worked in Israel. Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/43 "2015-11-06T11:04:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. And they’ve apparently experienced [way fewer](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-rejects-nras-guns-in-schools-claim/) school attacks than the US has:\* > [@](#): > > Far from the image of a heavily armed population where ordinary people have their own arsenals to repel attackers, Israel allows its people to acquire firearms only if they can prove their professions or places of residence put them in danger. The country relies on its security services, not armed citizens, to prevent terror attacks. > > Though military service in Israel is compulsory, routine familiarity with weapons does not carry over into civilian life. Israel has far fewer private weapons per capita than the U.S., and while there have been gangster shootouts on the streets from time to time, gun rampages outside the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unheard of. […] > > Israel never had “a whole lot of school shootings.” Authorities could only recall two in the past four decades. > > In 1974, 22 children and three adults were killed in a Palestinian attack on an elementary school in Maalot, near the border with Lebanon. The attackers’ goal was to take the children hostage and trade them for imprisoned militants. > > In 2008, another Palestinian assailant killed eight young people, most of them teens, at a nighttime study session at a Jewish religious seminary in Jerusalem. An off-duty soldier who happened to be in the area killed the attacker with his personal firearm. > > Israel didn’t mandate armed guards at the entrances to all schools until 1995, the Education Ministry said — more than two decades after the Maalot attack and two years after a Palestinian militant wounded five pupils and their principal in a knifing at a Jerusalem school. After the start of the recent wave of knifing attacks against Israelis, gun permit restrictions [were apparently somewhat loosened](http://www.timesofisrael.com/gun-permit-restrictions-eased-amid-terror-wave/), but they’re still way more strict than in the US. - Excluding from consideration the endemic attacks on Palestinian schoolchildren by terrorist settlers in the occupied territories, which don’t get anywhere near the attention from law enforcement that attacks on Israeli citizens do. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/44 "2015-11-06T12:08:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. And the difference in appearance of the two is? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/45 "2015-11-06T12:20:28Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And the difference in appearance of the two is? It’s a massive difference in mentality - how can you shoot the people you’re supposed to protect? There’s never been a school shooting in the U.S sense in Israel, and if one took place, God forbid, it would lead to a major rethinking of security measures and preventive actions. ---
**Author:** ![halman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@halman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/halman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/46 "2015-11-06T13:06:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If we could figure that out, everyone would be happy. What is it about the U.S.? ‘Going postal’ was a term for mass shootings that were happening back in the 1980’s. ‘Murder-suicide’ is now a term we hear often. Any offense seems to warrant blasting away, and who cares who dies? Violence in this country is so commonplace that people don’t even consider shielding their children from graphic violence in movies on DVD. We tell people that they can have whatever they want, right now, instant gratification. For teen-age boys, the only thing they want is sex. When they feel rejected, humiliated, or disrespected, they feel threatened and want to take action. Used to be, people went to social gatherings, through churches, grange halls, and clubs, and behavior that was anti-social was caught in the nub. Now, a person can withdraw, get all worked up, and no one notices. Our society is sick, and these shootings are a symptom. Stopping them by arming teachers is not going to cure the underlying disease, just make it change into something probably even more deadly. The Columbine killers almost took out a whole lot more people, but their bomb failed to go off. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/47 "2015-11-06T16:49:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s a massive difference in mentality - how can you shoot the people you’re supposed to protect? I imagine when they’re murdering a score of _other_ people you’re supposed to protect, it might spur you to act. Has no student ever become a terrorist in Israel? Happens all the time in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/48 "2015-11-06T17:12:08Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/49 "2015-11-06T18:55:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Arming teachers has worked in Israel. > [@Alessan](#): > > Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. And at least half of them have firearms training thanks to defense service. We don’t have conscription in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/50 "2015-11-06T19:15:03Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > I read a brilliant piece after the Newtown shootings. The writer deftly dissected the myth that anybody with a gun is immediately transformed into a hero/Rambo type when confronted with an “active shooter.” Even highly trained individuals make terrible mistakes in the face of danger; your average Joe Schmo would be even more likely to freeze in panic or injure an innocent bystander. The writer of the piece also mentioned that the mother of the shooter in Newtown had an impressive number of firearms at her disposal, and she couldn’t even defend herself against her own son. In other words, the gun control writer dissected a mythical strawman, loved by all gun control folks. You don’t say! ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/51 "2015-11-06T20:31:52Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > I read a brilliant piece after the Newtown shootings. The writer deftly dissected the myth that anybody with a gun is immediately transformed into a hero/Rambo type when confronted with an “active shooter.” Even highly trained individuals make terrible mistakes in the face of danger; your average Joe Schmo would be even more likely to freeze in panic or injure an innocent bystander. The writer of the piece also mentioned that the mother of the shooter in Newtown had an impressive number of firearms at her disposal, and she couldn’t even defend herself against her own son. This is the attitude that I don’t get. You’re essentially saying that because in many cases – maybe even most – the armed citizen wouldn’t stop the massacre, we shouldn’t allow people to even try to defend themselves. Those who advocate teachers, students, or whoever being armed aren’t pretending that having a gun on your hip makes you Rambo. They aren’t claiming that having a gun turns you into a superhero who will always save the day. It _does_ make you someone who at least has a chance at defending yourself and others. Maybe you’ll be caught off guard and never have a chance to shoot. Maybe you’ll be too scared to use it. Maybe you’ll fire but miss. Maybe you’ll shoot a bystander. All entirely possible. But you’ll at least have the opportunity to defend yourself rather than just standing there and being killed by the person with all the power. When these shootings happen, it’s hard to imagine that gun control advocates really say “I’m glad nobody else in that school had a gun. Twenty children and six adults are dead, but if one of those teachers was a gun nut he might have shot a bystander. Really dodged a bullet there.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/52 "2015-11-06T20:42:25Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Maybe you’ll shoot a bystander. There must be the ability to judge things like that, and I do not know how to decide who has it and who does not. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/53 "2015-11-06T20:43:48Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > This is the attitude that I don’t get. You’re essentially saying that because in many cases – maybe even most – the armed citizen wouldn’t stop the massacre, we shouldn’t allow people to even try to defend themselves. > Those who advocate teachers, students, or whoever being armed aren’t pretending that having a gun on your hip makes you Rambo. They aren’t claiming that having a gun turns you into a superhero who will always save the day. It _does_ make you someone who at least has a chance at defending yourself and others. > Maybe you’ll be caught off guard and never have a chance to shoot. Maybe you’ll be too scared to use it. Maybe you’ll fire but miss. Maybe you’ll shoot a bystander. All entirely possible. But you’ll at least have the opportunity to defend yourself rather than just standing there and being killed by the person with all the power. > When these shootings happen, it’s hard to imagine that gun control advocates really say “I’m glad nobody else in that school had a gun. Twenty children and six adults are dead, but if one of those teachers was a gun nut he might have shot a bystander. Really dodged a bullet there.” No they’re saying that the it appears that the chance of stopping/minimizing an evil event with a gun increases at a far slower rate than the chance of an evil event with a gun occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/54 "2015-11-06T22:14:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. The massacre at the elementary school in Sandy Hook was not the result of an elementary student going crazy. Personally, I don’t think Sandy hook type incidents are common enough to justify arming teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/55 "2015-11-06T22:24:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There must be the ability to judge things like that, and I do not know how to decide who has it and who does not. Presumably the teacher would know the other staff and elementary school kids well enough to aim for the adult male with the rifle. Just saying. I don’t see teachers willingly carrying guns in most places and forcing them to carry guns is only going to increase accident rates without really improving security. I don’t think school shootings are at the point where the reduction in school shootings would be higher than the increase in accidental shootings. There is a threshhold benefit that you have to achieve before you can really push for something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/56 "2015-11-06T22:27:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see teachers willingly carrying guns in most places and forcing them to carry guns is only going to increase accident rates without really improving security. I don’t think school shootings are at the point where the reduction in school shootings would be higher than the increase in accidental shootings. There is a threshhold benefit that you have to achieve before you can really push for something like this. No one is advocating forcing teachers to carry guns. At most the push is to let teachers carry if they want to, and go through various vetting processes. I am in favor of that. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/57 "2015-11-06T23:20:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And they’ve apparently experienced [way fewer](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-rejects-nras-guns-in-schools-claim/) school attacks than the US has:\* _Everywhere_ has way fewer school attacks than the US has. Even in proportion. This _may_ be because of the easier access to firearms the US enjoys, but the jury’s still out on that one. Many American gun enthusiasts argue there is no connection between the freedom to own an arsenal and the willingness to use that arsenal. Still, while it’s easy to sneer at this proposal; it may have merits. However what sort of firearms are issued is important: turning up with shotguns would be useless, and I think hand-arms far too dangerous in a school setting. One needs reach and one needs accuracy. Therefore I would suggest machine-rifles. The second point is who should be armed ? Teachers have enough to do and might not be expert enough; security firms often use unsuitable personnel; hired killers are unreliable. Now in British schools we have prefects, older pupils who supervise those who are not prefects — I eluded becoming one. They too are unsuitable because they need to concentrate on their prefecting and studying for goody-goodyness. It is those who are passed over for responsibility, the outsider kids, the ones smoking behind the bicycle-sheds, the shirkers, the loners and the bullied, who would benefit from being entrusted with responsibility and knowing they were being given a chance, who would like to earn respect by being the only ones going down those mean corridors with fully loaded automatic weapons. It would change lives. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/58 "2015-11-07T00:58:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israeli teachers are armed to protect the school from terrorists, not its own students. Wouldn’t it also be true to say that Israeli teachers go through a stint in the army, which typically would involve serious firearms training ? I wouldn’t want my putative kids to be taught and supervised by some yokel with a gun fetish and a strong belief in the fairy tale of “good guy with a gun saves everyone”. That’s just a serious accident waiting to happen. Hell, if US cops are untrained and inept enough to be in the news so very often these days (for a number of reasons, many of which have to do with budget cuts, abysmal hiring standards and shitty supervision), I shudder to think what the average teacher eager to go in strapped would look like. [QUOTE=Dingbang] When these shootings happen, it’s hard to imagine that gun control advocates really say “I’m glad nobody else in that school had a gun. Twenty children and six adults are dead, but if one of those teachers was a gun nut he might have shot a bystander. Really dodged a bullet there.” [/QUOTE] The problem with this argument is that it only focuses on the day one nutcase decides to show up at the school armed with a combat rifle. Which, while depressingly routine these days in the US as a whole, still represents a fairly freak occurrence at any given school. What about every \*other \*day ? How does the introduction of openly armed teachers affect those ? I’m thinking in terms of accidents ([hilarious](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0) or less so), of teachers going apeshit themselves or pulling their piece on physically menacing students, of suicidal (or even murderous !) kids taking the gun off their teacher… Multiply that by every classroom in the land, and every day of class. I’m pretty sure you’d handily top the damage done by the episodic nutcase. [QUOTE=up\_the\_junction] It’s about as sensible as getting the 102nd to teach pre-school. [/QUOTE] … I want to see that movie now. READ, MOTHERFUCKER ! I AM ORDERING YOU TO READ, MAGGOT ! ---
**Author:** ![jsquire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jsquire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsquire)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/59 "2015-11-07T02:16:45Z")
I am a high school teacher, and I have a few truly bizarre colleagues. Nearly every high school in America has at least one whackjob working in it. They day they’re allowed to pack heat at school is the day I walk out and never look back. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714/60 "2015-11-07T02:43:37Z")
> [@jsquire](#): > > I am a high school teacher, and I have a few truly bizarre colleagues. Well I’ve yet to meet a truly non-bizarre math teacher, but most of 'em are harmless enough :). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers-with-guns/736714.md?page=4)