# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/221 "2018-02-22T12:29:02Z")
Teachers, well many of them, consider their students as their children. The choice to kill one of your own children to save the others is just a amazingly weighty issue. Children knowing that their teacher may have to kill them one day is also another such weighty issue. It would change the dynamics of the student teacher relationship and shatter and destroy lives at times in perhaps different ways then the school shootings do as things are now. Perhaps worse, perhaps better. Most likely better for some, worse for others. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/222 "2018-02-22T13:24:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think most people would advocate that teachers should “go looking” for the intruder. I suspect the plan for many would be to sit tight, gun drawn in case shooter breaks down / shoots through door. Is there a gun problem that can’t be solved with more guns? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/223 "2018-02-22T13:33:16Z")
The “full gun cabinet” problem, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/224 "2018-02-22T13:34:52Z")
As someone who works in a school district, I can tell you now that the overwhelming majority of teachers simply would not take part in something like that. They are not emotionally equipped for it, nor do they want to do it under any circumstances. Also, a gun in a classroom, even if it is strapped to a teacher’s waist, is a risk factor. If I’m wannabe school shooter, I don’t even have to smuggle a gun into school. I can just pick my moment and strike a sudden, severe blow to the head of an unsuspecting teacher and, voila, I have a gun and can start shooting right there inside the room. It just makes no sense on several levels. More guns don’t make us safer. Research Dodge City, Laramie, Abilene, etc, in the 1800’s and you’ll have plenty of historical proof that lots of people die when there are lots of guns around. So, we could all walk around with a gun strapped to our waists like they did in the old West, but you’d just end up with a whole lot more dead people. ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/225 "2018-02-22T13:36:55Z")
My only response to the idea of arming teachers is no. No, no, no, no, no. Just no. I teach, though in a university rather than a school. The solution to the problem of mass shootings will never be more guns, bigger guns, more powerful guns, or more people with guns. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/226 "2018-02-22T13:51:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Is there a gun problem that can’t be solved with more guns? Too little ammo? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/227 "2018-02-22T13:56:26Z")
How many shootings could this prevent or mitigate? How many teachers are actually willing and able to confidently use a weapon? And how many shootings could it make easier or worse, by either a disgruntled teacher/employee or student knowing there is a gun in the school? Bored kids will find out where the secret stuff is pretty easily, at least in my experience. The janitors will almost certainly know. This is barely a solution, ISTM – at best, this might mitigate a very small percentage of school shootings. At worst, it leads to more death and destruction than it prevents. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/228 "2018-02-22T14:15:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think in the right-wing fantasies, a brave teacher locks the students in the classroom as she creeps out to take out the shooter. > > And the thing is, it _will_ happen: given enough mass shootings, eventually they’ll be one cut short by a concealed carry teacher. > > And to some proportion of people, it won’t matter whether the number of mass shootings actually went down (it won’t), or how many of the guns teachers brought into schools accidentally or deliberately resulted in the deaths of innocent people. If you can cherry-pick one event that fits your narrative, that’s enough. Has already happened, and I believe more than once: [NY Times: An Armed Principal Detained a Campus Gunman. But He’s Against Arming School Staff.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shootings-teachers.html) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/229 "2018-02-22T14:20:24Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > In response to the spate of unspeakable school shootings America has endured, culminating in the horrific murders in Florida last week, some people are advocating having teachers trained in the use of firearms, who would then carry concealed weapons on their person at all times on school campuses. I see several rational problems with this approach. Not much point in concealing the weapons if everybody knows that all teachers are [del]carrying them[/del] packing. > [@Mijin](#): > > I think in the right-wing fantasies, a brave teacher locks the students in the classroom as she creeps out to take out the shooter. No, no, no. They’ll just crawl through the air ducts, pick off the shooters one-by-one, before confronting the mastermind and delivering a devastating one-liner. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/230 "2018-02-22T14:23:20Z")
Merged duplicate thread starting at post #212 - #229. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/231 "2018-02-22T14:27:04Z")
**Jasmine** has an excellent point. I do volunteer work in the Ohio prison system, and the corrections officers do not carry guns for the same reason. The officers carry batons and pepper spray, but no guns. I also carry a concealed pistol every day, and I practice at a range once a week. While I feel competent with my pistols, I have no illusions about being capable of dealing with a rifle-wielding active shooter with a pistol. One of the things that has become apparent to me as more and more mass shootings occur is how many scenarios that actually happen are beyond the capability of a “good guy with a concealed pistol” to rectify. I may be capable of using a pistol for self defense in my home or in a mugging situation, but I think most school shootings are beyond what a pistol shooter help with. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/232 "2018-02-22T14:37:40Z")
In addition to usually being armed with high-powered and accurate rifles and carbines, school shooters (and mass shooters in general), by definition, have worked themselves into the mindset necessary to quickly and easily take human lives. In my understanding, this is a very difficult thing for most non-sociopaths to do, and I think many folks are vastly underestimating how difficult it is. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/233 "2018-02-22T15:29:12Z")
There is a word in German which perfectly describes this proposal: “Verschlimmbesserung”. It means “To make something worse while trying to make it better”. No doubt, on occasion an armed teacher _would_, in fact, shoot an armed student intent on massacre. However, it is easy to foresee that the numbers of victims prevented by such heroics are going to be far outweighed by the numbers killed in accidents by badly trained teachers, suicides by depressed teachers, murders by psycho teachers, accidents, suicides and murders by students who get their hands on the guns, etc. Not to mention - the US already has a problem with the police shooting people in situations where such a response wasn’t justified. The police are, presumably, highly trained to deal with such situations, as that is part of their jobs. Teachers are not, and it is unlikely that any amount of PD days devoted to such training will bring your average school teacher to the level of a police officer - so presumably, they will be even worse than the cops at judging when to, and when not to, use deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/234 "2018-02-22T15:34:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is a word in German which perfectly describes this proposal: “Verschlimmbesserung”. It means “To make something worse while trying to make it better”. > > No doubt, on occasion an armed teacher _would_, in fact, shoot an armed student intent on massacre. > > However, it is easy to foresee that the numbers of victims prevented by such heroics are going to be far outweighed by the numbers killed in accidents by badly trained teachers, suicides by depressed teachers, murders by psycho teachers, accidents, suicides and murders by students who get their hands on the guns, etc. > > Not to mention - the US already has a problem with the police shooting people in situations where such a response wasn’t justified. The police are, presumably, highly trained to deal with such situations, as that is part of their jobs. Teachers are not, and it is unlikely that any amount of PD days devoted to such training will bring your average school teacher to the level of a police officer - so presumably, they will be even worse than the cops at judging when to, and when not to, use deadly force. The answer to your concerns are obvious, arm the pupils to take down rogue teachers. The solution to gun violence should always involve more guns. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/235 "2018-02-22T15:50:48Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Frankly, I was not aware this was the case. I will have to read about it some more before I have a useful opinion. Thanks! In the interest of disclosure, and as discussed in this thread: while I can say with confidence that, by 2014, 18 states provided for allowing teachers/staff members of carry firearms at school, I don’t know how many teachers actually do so. I think that matters less in response to your point (which had to do with an environment in which firearms were permitted) than it did in response to **k9bfriender** ’s point, which had to do with the dangers posed by armed teachers. But it’s a weakness in my point that is worth noting. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In addition to **usually being armed with high-powered and accurate rifles and carbines** , school shooters (and mass shooters in general), by definition, have worked themselves into the mindset necessary to quickly and easily take human lives. Is the bold true? I understand that defining “school shooter” is somewhat controversial, but I would have told that school shootings (as with most firearm violence) are usually committed with handguns. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/236 "2018-02-22T15:57:02Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > The answer to your concerns are obvious, arm the pupils to take down rogue teachers. The solution to gun violence should always involve more guns. A similar tactic worked for this woman I know who swallowed a fly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/237 "2018-02-22T16:10:19Z")
When Trump had his little fireside chat the other day with some of the survivors, his response to their pleas for help was to announce that he will be seeking to restrict “bump stocks”. How many mass school shootings have involved the use of “bump stocks”? How many mass shootings total have involved the use of “bump stocks”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/238 "2018-02-22T16:16:03Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > Having had experience in both working in a school as an officer and law enforcement in general…one issue already mentioned is the size of the schools. Here in GA like a lot of places we have massive huge high schools. 3 thousand kids… multiple structures… multiple asst principals etc. I can’t imagine how many officers you would need to fully secure it… but the elephant in the room to me is this… Upper middle class parents are what you need for a successful school situation. You can have your poorer kids… etc… but you need the middle to upper class to buy into your public school. As i’ve argued with my police/military buddies… have some dude walking around fullyarmed like its a mall in Tel Aviv and you’ll see a flood of kids to privates… Maybe we get parents involved by arming the PTA. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/239 "2018-02-22T16:20:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Too little ammo? 😉 … and sooo many students. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/240 "2018-02-22T16:32:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > … How many mass school shootings have involved the use of “bump stocks”? I believe the answer is zero. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many mass shootings total have involved the use of “bump stocks”? The only one I’m aware of is Las Vegas. I agree that banning bump stocks is unlikely to put any significant dent in gun violence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=13)