# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/241 "2018-02-22T16:34:35Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I also carry a concealed pistol every day, and I practice at a range once a week. While I feel competent with my pistols, I have no illusions about being capable of dealing with a rifle-wielding active shooter with a pistol. One of the things that has become apparent to me as more and more mass shootings occur is how many scenarios that actually happen are beyond the capability of a “good guy with a concealed pistol” to rectify. I may be capable of using a pistol for self defense in my home or in a mugging situation, but I think most school shootings are beyond what a pistol shooter help with. You mean you can’t consistently shoot a moving target in the eye from a quick-draw hip shot at 50 yards while under pressure? I’ve seen numerous documentaries where this sort of act is routine, even for chronically hung-over out of work cattle hands using relatively primitive and poorly maintained gear. You need to spend more time at the range, methinks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/242 "2018-02-22T16:44:43Z")
Our local news last night did a feature on how police train to handle crisis situations under stress when innocent bystanders are involved…and what I saw was rather disappointing to me. The policewoman was in a room where the shooter, with hostage in hand, was stationary and the panicked crowd was represented by three or four propped-up dummies. Apparently, if the policewoman shot the shooter first she won. The “hostage” didn’t move or say anything. The dummies stayed put. The room was quiet. MFG-if I had to deal with that much “stress” in my daily life, I would skip vacations altogether. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/243 "2018-02-22T16:55:02Z")
I strongly agree with everyone who says it won’t work to arm teachers. Only in an action movie does it make sense. In the real world, the problems and accidental shootings would likely greatly outweigh any benefits. I think a better solution is to make schools more accepting to the weirdos, outcasts, emos, bullied, and other kids who feel like they don’t belong. Schools just magnify feelings of inadequacy. I’m sure the popular kids and athletes feel like high school is the best place in the world, but if you don’t fit in, it can be soul crushing. “Oh, you get bad grades? You’re a loser who won’t amount to anything.” “Oh, you can’t afford the latest fashion? You’re a loser who won’t amount to anything.” “Oh, you have some behavior differences? You’re a loser who won’t amount to anything and no one wants to be friends with you.” And it’s not just the fault of other kids–the administration is often complicit. The focus is always on excellence. If you get good grades or score points for your team, the school loves you. But if you don’t do well, then the school will ignore you or just put forth some token effort. It would help greatly if the school wrapped their figurative arms around the oddball kids and said “We care about you and will help you excel in whatever way is best for you.” TL;DR: Make the non-conforming kids feel like they matter and they won’t feel the need to shoot up the school. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/244 "2018-02-22T16:57:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Our local news last night did a feature on how police train to handle crisis situations under stress when innocent bystanders are involved…and what I saw was rather disappointing to me. The policewoman was in a room where the shooter, with hostage in hand, was stationary and the panicked crowd was represented by three or four propped-up dummies. Apparently, if the policewoman shot the shooter first she won. > The “hostage” didn’t move or say anything. > The dummies stayed put. > The room was quiet. > MFG-if I had to deal with that much “stress” in my daily life, I would skip vacations altogether. It’s one of the things about these debates that have always struck me as funny. It’s something I typically here from the gun-control advocates. Something along the lines of “You should just let the professionals handle it” or “You’re not trained” etc. My thought is always, “ummm … you probably don’t realize how poorly-trained the police are”. It’s not, generally speaking, very impressive training. Anyone who has graduated from FrontSight would basically fit into the upper echelon of police capabilities. If you ever get the chance to go to a police gun range, look around. Check the walls, the ceiling, the floor. I can virtually guarantee you’ll see damage from negligent discharges. _These_ are the people that I keep getting told are the “only ones professional enough”?!? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/245 "2018-02-22T17:01:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s one of the things about these debates that have always struck me as funny. It’s something I typically here from the gun-control advocates. Something along the lines of “You should just let the professionals handle it” or “You’re not trained” etc. > > My thought is always, “ummm … you probably don’t realize how poorly-trained the police are”. It’s not, generally speaking, very impressive training. Anyone who has graduated from FrontSight would basically fit into the upper echelon of police capabilities. If you ever get the chance to go to a police gun range, look around. Check the walls, the ceiling, the floor. I can virtually guarantee you’ll see damage from negligent discharges. _These_ are the people that I keep getting told are the “only ones professional enough”?!? If this is an attempt to say that police training doesn’t make them any better than the common citizen…try to imagine how bad they would be _without_ the training they receive. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/246 "2018-02-22T17:04:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this is an attempt to say that police training doesn’t make them any better than the common citizen…try to imagine how bad they would be _without_ the training they receive. I’m entirely confident that the median CCW permit holder trains significantly more and is a significantly-more-skilled marksman than the median police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/247 "2018-02-22T17:05:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m entirely confident that the median CCW permit holder trains significantly more and is a significantly-more-skilled marksman than the median police officer. If you had cites to show that were true, I would actually sleep better at night. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/248 "2018-02-22T17:17:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s one of the things about these debates that have always struck me as funny. It’s something I typically here from the gun-control advocates. Something along the lines of “You should just let the professionals handle it” or “You’re not trained” etc. > > My thought is always, “ummm … you probably don’t realize how poorly-trained the police are”. It’s not, generally speaking, very impressive training. Anyone who has graduated from FrontSight would basically fit into the upper echelon of police capabilities. If you ever get the chance to go to a police gun range, look around. Check the walls, the ceiling, the floor. I can virtually guarantee you’ll see damage from negligent discharges. _These_ are the people that I keep getting told are the “only ones professional enough”?!? Well, even the pros had to make some mistakes before becoming experts. That said, it sounds like some excellent reasons to disarm the general public and most of the rank and file police. Like in the UK, for example. Leave the job to the really well trained professionals, eh? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/249 "2018-02-22T17:17:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you had cites to show that were true, I would actually sleep better at night. Oh, I doubt highly you’ll be persuaded by any cites I provide, and truthfully a significant portion of that opinion is formed with personal interactions with law enforcement, during shooting competitions, in conversations, at the range, etc., but what the hell, why not give it a try. > [@](#): > > By the time an average police recruit completes typical academy firearms training, how much more skilled in shooting is he than a person who has never shot or even held a handgun before? Not much, according to a first-of-its-kind study by the Force Science Institute that is set for publication in an international law enforcement journal . . . > “[T]his study’s results indicate an alarming need for improved firearms training for officers,” writes lead researcher Dr. Bill Lewinski, FSI’s executive director. After finishing academy instruction and practice, new officers “were a mere 13%” more accurate than novices in shooting at distances where a high proportion of officer-involved shootings occur. > > “What these statistics appear to imply,” Lewinski states, “is that officer firearms training is not extensive enough and occurs too sparsely for officers to gain, and maintain, the expert level of accuracy with their service weapons that is expected of them.” This training deficiency “may result in injury, death, or other severe consequences.” [http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/robert-farago/study-why-police-firearms-training-sucks/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/robert-farago/study-why-police-firearms-training-sucks/) > [@](#): > > A careful, but hardly exhaustive, study of reality reveals that common knowledge is wrong: where firearms are involved, the police are not highly trained professionals. That many people buy this misconception is understandable. Americans are raised on a steady diet of cop TV shows and movies where the heroes, virtually every episode, end up shooting bad guys, usually dropping them with single, perfectly placed, shots, or even shooting to wound, which virtually always immediately drops and incapacitates the bad guy. > > The truth is—and should be—frightening: the overwhelming majority of police officers are not competent shooters. > > Many police officers own few, if any, handguns, and many more own only a shotgun or a .22LR rifle of some kind. They rarely, if ever, practice on their own, and only a tiny portion of all police officers use their own time and money to attend advanced shooting or tactical schools, things a great many citizens routinely do. Far too many officers have only a single firearm: their issued duty handgun. Often, that handgun, as in the case of New York City, is a serious problem in and of itself. > **[HARSH REALITY: Police Are Not Highly Trained Firearms Experts](https://bearingarms.com/mmcdaniel-bearingarms/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible-n25711)** > >   ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/250 "2018-02-22T17:21:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Oh, I doubt highly you’ll be persuaded by any cites I provide, and truthfully a significant portion of that opinion is formed with personal interactions with law enforcement, during shooting competitions, in conversations, at the range, etc., but what the hell, why not give it a try. > > [http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/robert-farago/study-why-police-firearms-training-sucks/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/robert-farago/study-why-police-firearms-training-sucks/) > > [HARSH REALITY: Police Are Not Highly Trained Firearms Experts – Bearing Arms](https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/) At best, your cites shown that police are poorly trained. Where is the cite that would indicate that CCW permit holders are trained better? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/251 "2018-02-22T17:22:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > … That said, it sounds like some excellent reasons to disarm the general public and most of the rank and file police. … Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/252 "2018-02-22T17:23:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Good luck with that. _I have a dream…_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/253 "2018-02-22T17:25:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > _I have a dream…_ Sorry about that-It seems that all we have on stock are nightmares. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/254 "2018-02-22T17:30:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m entirely confident that the median CCW permit holder trains significantly more and is a significantly-more-skilled marksman than the median police officer. And how much time does your median CCW permit holder spend at training? Is this something that teachers are going to have time for? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/255 "2018-02-22T17:39:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You forgot(as do most people replying as you have done) the two factors that make the difference: > > 1. The person who already has their weapon out and ready has a distinct advantage. > 2. The person who doesn’t give a shit about the safety of innocent bystanders has a distinct advantage. This, this, this. The element of surprise and intent cannot be underestimated. When I worked in courtrooms, we did regular drills with the deputy sheriffs whose job it was to provide bailiff services and courtroom security. They would work up all kinds of potential scenarios, and we would then role play them in our efforts to be better prepared. _Even knowing it was just a drill, even having armed deputies on the actual scene and more coming within 2 minutes when we hit the panic button, even with some judges who did have CCW, the confusion and element of surprise always determined the outcome. It wasn’t good._ I was a hell of a lot more grateful when they finally installed kevlar in the cubby below my desk. > [@Crotalus](#): > > **Jasmine** has an excellent point. I do volunteer work in the Ohio prison system, and the corrections officers do not carry guns for the same reason. The officers carry batons and pepper spray, but no guns. > > I also carry a concealed pistol every day, and I practice at a range once a week. While I feel competent with my pistols, I have no illusions about being capable of dealing with a rifle-wielding active shooter with a pistol. One of the things that has become apparent to me as more and more mass shootings occur is how many scenarios that actually happen are beyond the capability of a “good guy with a concealed pistol” to rectify. I may be capable of using a pistol for self defense in my home or in a mugging situation, but I think most school shootings are beyond what a pistol shooter help with. This is so true. Sure, there may be one scenario in a thousand where the Good Guy with a Gun™ manages to save the day. And that will be against a hundred or so where arming teachers leads instead to tragic consequences. That’s just the reality of adding more guns to the mix. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m entirely confident that the median CCW permit holder trains significantly more and is a significantly-more-skilled marksman than the median police officer. I’ve taken your Utah CCW training. Frankly, I was waiting for someone to ask if I had enough box tops. There were people in that class who struggled to even know when the safety was on with some guns. And they passed the “training.” Like **Czarcasm** and **Crotalus** made clear above, there is hardly enough training in the world to effectively face off against a determined shooter who a) has already decided he doesn’t mind dying; and b) has decided to take out as many people as he can until that happens. I am fortunate to be able to conveniently target practice on my land any time I want and I do it often. Like **Crotalus** , I have no illusions based on my experience of these scenarios that I would have any especial ability to stop them in the heat of the moment. Adding more guns to the situation is the last thing we should do. It only adds additional burdens to already-overloaded teachers’ responsibilities and confuses law enforcement. Dumb. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/256 "2018-02-22T17:47:04Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > … Sure, there may be one scenario in a thousand where the Good Guy with a Gun™ manages to save the day. And that will be against a hundred or so where arming teachers leads instead to tragic consequences. … Do you have a cite for that? Or is it more of a guess / gut feeling? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/257 "2018-02-22T17:51:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Or is it more of a guess / gut feeling? About as valid as your claim that CCW permit holders are better trained than the police, I’d say? His opinion is based what would happen _if_ the teachers were armed the way some seem to want. Baring time travel, where would you expect such a cite to come from? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/258 "2018-02-22T17:53:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And how much time does your median CCW permit holder spend at training? Is this something that teachers are going to have time for? **Problem** : Teachers class sizes are too big, they barely have the time to prepare and deliver lessons, let alone maintain the mental skillset and resolve necessary to identify, sight, and neutralize an active shooter threat. **Solution** : 1. Reduce base workload to a teacher/student ratio of 1:20 so teachers have a reasonable amount of time and reduced chronic stress level to foster the necessary mental and physical skills to adequately manage firearms expertise. Additional compensation should be administered to encourage and reward this additional duty, and the firearms carry is optional. 2. Teachers are also to be trained in far and near-term threat identification and de-escalation, ideally enabling them to identify potential future threats in the form of psychologically disadvantaged individuals who may then be referred to the appropriate preventive programs 3. Student curriculum is to be enhanced in the K-12 programs to include an emphasis on critical reasoning and conflict de-escalation with a principle emphasis on verbal techniques. Grades 4-12 are to receive 2 hour/week training in physical de-escalation techniques, including Kung-fu meditative training, and krav maga or similar hand to hand resource-focused combat training. There, I fixed it. If you need some budget money, run all this through the goddamned athletics department. Now. Somebody give me a cupcake. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/259 "2018-02-22T17:58:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s one of the things about these debates that have always struck me as funny. It’s something I typically here from the gun-control advocates. Something along the lines of “You should just let the professionals handle it” or “You’re not trained” etc. > > My thought is always, “ummm … you probably don’t realize how poorly-trained the police are”. It’s not, generally speaking, very impressive training. Anyone who has graduated from FrontSight would basically fit into the upper echelon of police capabilities. If you ever get the chance to go to a police gun range, look around. Check the walls, the ceiling, the floor. I can virtually guarantee you’ll see damage from negligent discharges. _These_ are the people that I keep getting told are the “only ones professional enough”?!? Assume for the sake of argument this is true. How is it a counter-argument? Strikes me that if the police aren’t being well trained for such situations (which perhaps is a factor in the high number of police shootings of civilians), the schoolteachers are likely going to get far, far _less_ training than the police - leading to even _worse_ results for them. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/260 "2018-02-22T17:59:46Z")
How expensive are metal detectors? Wouldn’t a simple approach like that be much better than … :eek: … MORE guns??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=14)