# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/261 "2018-02-22T18:00:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > About as valid as your claim that CCW permit holders are better trained than the police, I’d say? His opinion is based what would happen _if_ the teachers were armed the way some seem to want. Baring time travel, where would you expect such a cite to come from? Well, it’s not _all_ hypothetical. There are actual places where teachers are armed in the classroom right now, today. I’d be surprised if there were actually decent scientific studies on the matter, which is why I’m pretty confident it’s just a gut feeling / guess-work. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/262 "2018-02-22T18:03:33Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > How expensive are metal detectors? Wouldn’t a simple approach like that be much better than … :eek: … MORE guns??? No. > [@](#): > > [As he entered the school through the main entrance, he encountered two unarmed security guards manning a metal detector. Weise shot and killed Derrick Brun, while the other security guard escaped without injury. Weise proceeded into the main corridor of the school. > > He began shooting into an English classroom, killing three students and one teacher, and wounding three students.[5] Ashley Lajeunesse said that Chase Lussier (no direct relation to Daryl Lussier) sheltered her, and was one of those shot by Weise. Jeffrey May, a 16-year-old sophomore, tried to wrestle Weise inside the classroom, and stabbed him in the stomach with a pencil.[6] His diversion allowed students to flee the classroom to safety, but Weise shot May two times in the neck and once in the jaw, leaving him seriously injured.[3] > > … > > At around 2:52 p.m., Weise returned to the main entrance, where he killed two students and wounded two others. The police had arrived quickly and engaged him in gunfire. FBI special agent Paul McCabe said the shootout lasted for about four minutes. None of the officers were injured.[5] After being hit in the abdomen and right arm, Weise retreated to a vacant classroom.[7] He leaned against a wall, put the shotgun barrel to his chin, and fired, killing himself.[1]]([Red Lake shootings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lake_shootings#Shootings)) ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/263 "2018-02-22T18:19:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > How expensive are metal detectors? Wouldn’t a simple approach like that be much better than … :eek: … MORE guns??? Buying a metal detector is the easy part. And that’s not so easy. The small-town high school where I work would need at least ten archway detectors. Fewer than that and you have to acknowledge that you are severely limiting how students and staff can move throughout the school. This will have an impact on programs that are offered. Then, one has to figure out how to deal with the large number of facilities that are not attached to the main building of the school. So, detectors will need to be purchased for those areas, too. But even if you could figure out how to purchase these metal detectors, you have only barely touched how much all of this will actually cost. Each detector would need to be staffed by at least two people. As mentioned by **HurricaneDitka** , those are the first two to be shot. Still, you need two people so that one can run for help while the other is getting shot. Each detector you install needs these two people. Then, when will you staff the metal detectors? Our school building is used all evening long. At least some of the detectors will need to be staffed for every band concert, basketball game, PTA meeting, student club meeting, outside community organization events, school play, etc. The list is endless. Some schools also have a night crew that cleans the buildings every night. The metal detectors need to be staffed for them, too. Otherwise, one of them might sneak a weapon in and hide it somewhere. If you’re going to have metal detectors, they must be used 100% of the time. So, the cost of installing and staffing metal detectors would be ENORMOUS. Not just huge, but downright crippling. It would be cheaper to buy back every AR-whatever in the whole country. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/264 "2018-02-22T18:19:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. That’s a pretty declarative answer for only having one example. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/265 "2018-02-22T18:23:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s a pretty declarative answer for only having one example. [Atlanta school shooting raises doubts about metal detectors](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2013/0201/Atlanta-school-shooting-raises-doubts-about-metal-detectors) > [@](#): > > A shooting at an Atlanta middle school Thursday has prompted questions about the effectiveness of metal detectors as a school security measure. > > Price Middle School has metal detectors. But it’s not clear if the shooter – a 15-year-old student there, according to police – went through a detector Thursday. He allegedly shot and wounded a 14-year-old student in a courtyard where students were moving between classes, and then was disarmed by an armed resource officer and taken into custody. > > The courtyard is accessible from outside the school, but the alleged shooter had arrived at school earlier in the day, an Atlanta Public Schools spokeswoman says. There, now you have two examples. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/266 "2018-02-22T18:25:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Assume for the sake of argument this is true. > > How is it a counter-argument? > > Strikes me that if the police aren’t being well trained for such situations (which perhaps is a factor in the high number of police shootings of civilians), the schoolteachers are likely going to get far, far _less_ training than the police - leading to even _worse_ results for them. Please see post #246 ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/267 "2018-02-22T18:28:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Or is it more of a guess / gut feeling? How about personal experience, since you readily admit we have no actual studies on the difference between arming lots of teachers and not arming lots of teachers? And how about just some common sense? I’ve seen more than one situation unfold in courtrooms where guns were present – and that was with just those persons authorized to have them. Here’s one: A trained, armed deputy once momentarily turned her back to a fully shackled defendant as she struggled to find the right key to unlock a door. The defendant grabbed her gun and despite the safety strap that was in place on the holster, managed to free the weapon. A quick-thinking public defender and a second deputy wrestled the gun from the defendant. (The public defender also immediately leaped up and said, “We’ll be declaring a conflict of interest, your honor.”) And before you say, “But… but… another armed person would have made the difference!” let me add that there were 3 other deputies in the courtroom that day, all armed – and it made no difference at all. These situations unfold _fast_. The law enforcement tasked with our safety made it clear they were not happy about even the judges having CCW in the courtrooms. Only one judge defied them. The deputies understood the complications that additional guns in the courtrooms created for them to carry out their duties. Most people get that as a matter of common sense. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/268 "2018-02-22T18:28:28Z")
A metal detector can be useful for stopping kids from bringing guns “just in case” or to show off but pretty obviously useless on someone intent on a murder spree. He is either going to start the murder spree a little earlier or sneak the guns in the day before through a window or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/269 "2018-02-22T18:49:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Is there a gun problem that can’t be solved with more guns? Maybe ask yourself a different question: Would you, faced with an armed criminal intent on your death, be better served cowering and whimpering behind a locked door or behind a locked door with a gun pointed at said door? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/270 "2018-02-22T18:55:29Z")
I like action movies too. I’d be interested in an actual answer to **QuickSilver’s** question though… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/271 "2018-02-22T18:57:15Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe ask yourself a different question: > > Would you, faced with an armed criminal intent on your death, be better served cowering and whimpering behind a locked door or behind a locked door with a gun pointed at said door? “Whimpering and cowering” :rolleyes: Are you addressing the person you want an honest answer from, or your audience? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/272 "2018-02-22T18:58:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Please see post #246 Again, assuming for the sake of argument that such training makes the average teacher a better marksman than the average cop (seems an absurd assertion, but just for the sake of argument, let’s say it is in fact so). This still doesn’t address the real issue - which isn’t really about accuracy of aim, but about experience and training to deal with crisis management situations. In short, it isn’t accuracy of aim that is of sole concern, it is also the decision of when to shoot --and when not to shoot. That’s more the realm of police training, and I doubt your average person will be as mentally prepared for it, or trained for it, as a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/273 "2018-02-22T19:08:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Our local news last night did a feature on how police train to handle crisis situations under stress when innocent bystanders are involved…and what I saw was rather disappointing to me. The policewoman was in a room where the shooter, with hostage in hand, was stationary and the panicked crowd was represented by three or four propped-up dummies. Apparently, if the policewoman shot the shooter first she won. > The “hostage” didn’t move or say anything. > The dummies stayed put. > The room was quiet. > MFG-if I had to deal with that much “stress” in my daily life, I would skip vacations altogether. [Here is the video of the report I saw.](http://www.koin.com/news/special-reports/wcso-deputies-when-to-use-lethal-force/980443509) I had forgotten that the “Shooter” was sitting on a big soft couch and his “Hostage” was sitting in a soft chair facing him. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/274 "2018-02-22T19:08:41Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe ask yourself a different question: > > Would you, faced with an armed criminal intent on your death, be better served cowering and whimpering behind a locked door or behind a locked door with a gun pointed at said door? I would absolutely prefer to have a gun in my hand if “faced with an armed criminal intent on [my] death”. The problem is this: what are the relative chances of the following: 1. That I’d have a gun ready to hand and loaded the moment I was “faced with an armed criminal intent on [my] death” if I was (say) a teacher in a school that enacted an “arm all teachers” policy; or 2. That such a policy would result in me being placed at risk, because fumble-fingered fellow teachers accidentally discharge their guns, or mentally unstable teachers shoot me with one, or a student get their hands on one and shoot me by accident or on purpose? Both are pretty remote chances, but it is perfectly reasonable to foresee that (1) is far less likely to happen than (2). Scenario (1) is highly emotionally satisfying; many of us want a chance to play the hero. In the cold light of reason, though, it is reasonable to assume scenario (2) is far more likely. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/275 "2018-02-22T19:15:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, assuming for the sake of argument that such training makes the average teacher a better marksman than the average cop (seems an absurd assertion, but just for the sake of argument, let’s say it is in fact so). > > This still doesn’t address the real issue - which isn’t really about accuracy of aim, but about experience and training to deal with crisis management situations. > > In short, it isn’t accuracy of aim that is of sole concern, it is also the decision of when to shoot --and when not to shoot. > > That’s more the realm of police training, and I doubt your average person will be as mentally prepared for it, or trained for it, as a police officer. And, just so I understand your position fully, it’s that you think the _police_ are the gold standard, the shining examples we want everyone emulating? That they’re the ones that generally-speaking exercise appropriate restraint and make good decisions about when to utilize deadly force? Look, I don’t know what sort of police you know, but every single one that I know is more than happy to repeat some variation of the line “the most important thing is that I go home safe at the end of my shift”. That’s their primary concern, not the judicious use of force. They’re more than happy to apply deadly force with great abandon if they think there’s even a small chance of anything violating rule #1. I could fill this page with liveleak videos of cops making questionable / downright evil shoots if you don’t believe me. Again, I’m of the opinion that the median CCW permit holder is better at “the decision of when to shoot --and when not to shoot” than the median police officer. ETA: Please read [this](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2015/03/20/blow-officers-first-duty-is-to-go-home-safely-job-requires-more-than-that) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/276 "2018-02-22T19:15:32Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe ask yourself a different question: > > Would you, faced with an armed criminal intent on your death, be better served cowering and whimpering behind a locked door or behind a locked door with a gun pointed at said door? Is that what you would do, if you didn’t have your gun? Cower and whimper? Personally, I would get next to the door, with a chair, desk, or whatever other heavy heftable object is available. If the shooter manages to make it through the locked door, I’ll do what I can there. Might work, might not. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/277 "2018-02-22T19:18:53Z")
Well, I was interested to hear about the ROTC student who ushered a bunch of kids into the ROTC room, and then unrolled sheets of kevlar to shield them. Since the NRA has multiple millions to spend on lobbying, I’m sure they could afford to put some kind of bullet-proof shield in every classroom. You know, like riot police have, only bigger. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/278 "2018-02-22T19:20:55Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > Well, I was interested to hear about the ROTC student who ushered a bunch of kids into the ROTC room, and then unrolled sheets of kevlar to shield them. > > Since the NRA has multiple millions to spend on lobbying, I’m sure they could afford to put some kind of bullet-proof shield in every classroom. You know, like riot police have, only bigger. Kevlar won’t do much against rifles. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/279 "2018-02-22T19:22:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And, just so I understand your position fully, it’s that you think the _police_ are the gold standard, the shining examples we want everyone emulating? That they’re the ones that generally-speaking exercise appropriate restraint and make good decisions about when to utilize deadly force? Certainly not the gold standard. I’ve met some cops that I think probably would serve as such an example, but I’ve never been with them in a dangerous situation, so it’s hard to say for sure. If your issue is that CCW’ers are better than cops, that reflects on the community’s standards of hiring and training its law enforcement. > [@](#): > > Look, I don’t know what sort of police you know, but every single one that I know is more than happy to repeat some variation of the line “the most important thing is that I go home safe at the end of my shift”. That’s their primary concern, not the judicious use of force. They’re more than happy to apply deadly force with great abandon if they think there’s even a small chance of anything violating rule #1. I could fill this page with liveleak videos of cops making questionable / downright evil shoots if you don’t believe me. Again, I’m of the opinion that the median CCW permit holder is better at “the decision of when to shoot --and when not to shoot” than the median police officer. I’ve met a number of cops who say that the most important thing to them is to protect their communities. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/280 "2018-02-22T19:22:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Personally, I would get next to the door, with a chair, desk, or whatever other heavy heftable object is available. If the shooter manages to make it through the locked door, I’ll do what I can there. Might work, might not. And just so I understand your position, is it that you would _prefer_ to have a “chair, desk, or whatever other heavy heftable object is available” than a firearm of your own in that situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=15)