# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/361 "2018-02-23T17:23:16Z")
The answer is “More Guns”. No matter what the question is. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/362 "2018-02-23T17:25:48Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I think of guns in the home for safety the same way. There is just a very slim chance that it would actually be needed for defense, but to have it at that moment means it’s in the house all the time. That means there’s plenty of time for kids to find and play with it, for someone to use it in anger, for someone to use it when they are depressed, for someone to have an accident with it, etc. No doubt if an intruder broke in I would wish I had a gun in that moment, but it seems like it would overall be more risky when considered over the whole time it’s in the house. > > In a school, there are all kinds of situations where the gun would likely cause problems. For example, there are teacher-student altercations all the time. It’s a certainty that one of the armed teachers would pull their gun in that situation because they felt threatened. Or even that some teachers would allude to having a gun if students were acting up. When a fire alarm is pulled, some teachers will go out holding their gun because they think a shooter pulled it. > > If you only consider that a teacher’s gun will be used when there’s an active shooter, then it seems like a great idea. But in the real world it means that a lot of teachers have a lot of guns for a lot of time where things can go wrong. Well said. Additionally, even if there is a real shooter and a teacher acts bravely and with all good intentions, he could nevertheless make things worse rather than better. Teachers are there to teach history and literature and science; they’re not soldiers or trained snipers, however much the NRA wishes they were. We live in the real world, with real people and real death, not a cartoonish NRA world where the model of the ideal citizen seems to be the “good guy with a gun” perfectly symbolized by Yosemite Sam. We saw in Parkland how totally useless even a trained armed deputy was. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My acceptable level would be if it’s a net positive. I doubt anyone has really good numbers on this, but imagine that we did, and could distill things down to something like this: School shootings cause X deaths and Y gunshot injuries in an average year. Arming teachers could prevent those but cause its own series of incidents with A deaths and B injuries." > > Well, if A\X and B\>Y, then it would be an unacceptable trade-off. Alternatively, you could choose “none of the above” by doing what every other country in the world is doing – minimizing guns in society and keeping them out of the hands of anyone who might reasonably pose a risk. Otherwise your strategy amounts to basically throwing a whole bunch of guns into a school and hoping that it all works out. It doesn’t. If a gun in the home can be shown to increase the risk of gun deaths and injuries, imagine what a hundred guns in a school can do. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > The answer is “More Guns”. > No matter what the question is. Exactly. And that’s because the NRA and its Congressional stooges are supplying the answer. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/363 "2018-02-23T17:50:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > … We saw in Parkland how totally useless even a trained armed deputy was… It’s funny to me how polar opposite the conclusions drawn by each side are. The RKBA side says, “see, you can’t just wait for the police, because they’re kind of incompetent and screw it up” while the gun control side says, “see, even a highly-skilled police officer, with years of training and experience, couldn’t stop the shooting. What chance do regular people have?” > [@wolfpup](#): > > … Alternatively, you could choose “none of the above” by doing what every other country in the world is doing – minimizing guns in society and keeping them out of the hands of anyone who might reasonably pose a risk. … “Every” country is doing that? > [@wolfpup](#): > > … If a gun in the home can be shown to increase the risk of gun deaths and injuries… There’s a correlation vs causation discussion to be had about this, but it’s already the subject of another thread (and I don’t think your side is doing very well there). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/364 "2018-02-23T17:56:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And if we arm the teachers, and school shootings continue, does that mean we didn’t arm the teachers enough, and there will be calls for increasing the number of guns in schools? > > Will there be some nebulous number of school shootings that are prevented because the teachers are armed and warding off shooters that will somehow always be larger than the number of incidents of accidental or malicious discharges? … if we were to undertake a nationwide campaign of allowing teachers to be armed in school, and in spite of that school shootings and # of deaths continued pretty much at the same pace they’ve been going, and on top of that we’ve had additional incidents with teachers shooting students over altercations, it would be reasonable to conclude it wasn’t working. OTOH, if the rate of school shootings plummets, and there are very few (if any) altercations that result in teachers shooting students or threatening mouthy ones with a gun, it would be reasonable to conclude it _was_ working. The reality is that we probably don’t have really good data for much of any of that, so everyone is basically left arguing based on whatever their hunch is, which is largely drawn from their partisan leanings. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/365 "2018-02-23T17:58:14Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > … But I have noticed a high level of general fearfulness among hard core gun proponents. … This charge gets leveled at gun owners specifically and Republicans in general (“the politics of fear”) quite regularly around here. Would you concede that the gun control advocates are fearful (of guns and their owners) as well? ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/366 "2018-02-23T18:13:43Z")
I have yet to see anyone explain the practicalities of arming teachers. How many teachers per school would be armed? How would that be decided? How would the teachers be chosen? Would it be on a volunteer basis? What if there weren’t enough volunteers? What kind of weapons would be used? Who would provide them? Where would the weapons be stored? How would teachers and police coordinate their efforts? These are just a few of the questions that spring to mind, and that’s even before we get to the question of training and the realities of an active shooter situation. I think arming teachers is a catastrophically bad idea (for many of the reasons others have mentioned in this thread). For Trump et al. it’s yet another soundbite that deflects attention from the real issues. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/367 "2018-02-23T18:20:58Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think it’s situational. I currently live in a large apartment block in a large city. My neighbors are pretty aware of comings and goings within the building. The would react instantly if they heard screaming or other sounds of a violent encounter. And I have multiple points of egress from each room - thanks to the fire safety laws that cover large buildings - and no macho need to face down an intruder. A gun is the last thing I need, since the bullets could easily penetrate walls, ceilings and floors and go into a neighboring apartment. > In fact. I feel so physically safe in my home that I don’t deadbolt my apartment door at night. I’m more scared of people ( like EMS ) NOT being able to get in should I have a stroke or something than I am of violent intruders. > > But I intend to retire to a rural area. In which case I might decide to buy a gun for protection, if I am living alone. Although some people have recommended a shotgun as opposed to a handgun based on my situation. Ill handle the specifics when I get there. But if I’m living in a rural area AND sharing a home with family that includes children ( another possible future scenario) - that would probably tip the scales against gun ownership. > > But I have noticed a high level of general fearfulness among hard core gun proponents. And I think this level of fearfulness can cause them to make bad decisions. If some guy is too scared to go to Applebee’s unless he takes an assault rifle with him, that’s not a guy I’d trust to make level-headed assessments in an emergency situation. Is it fearful to own the gun or is the fearfulness you are referring to only due to someone carrying in public? Preparedness comes to mind a bit more prevalent than fearful. To each their own I suppose. Does it make YOU fearful to see that person in Applebee’s? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/368 "2018-02-23T18:25:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This charge gets leveled at gun owners specifically and Republicans in general (“the politics of fear”) quite regularly around here. Would you concede that the gun control advocates are fearful (of guns and their owners) as well? Sure, but the fear is different. Gun control advocates are fearful of being killed. Gun rights advocates are fearful of living like the majority of Americans who own no guns. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/369 "2018-02-23T18:30:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s funny to me how polar opposite the conclusions drawn by each side are. The RKBA side says, “see, you can’t just wait for the police, because they’re kind of incompetent and screw it up” while the gun control side says, “see, even a highly-skilled police officer, with years of training and experience, couldn’t stop the shooting. What chance do regular people have?” Maybe those views aren’t so much “polar opposites” as being both simultaneously true to some degree. And the essential truth we might draw from that fact is that shooting attempts, especially with some of the kinds of high-powered high-capacity weapons that are so easy for practically any lunatic to buy, are likely to end tragically even with attempts at intervention. Shouldn’t that fact be guiding our thinking toward prevention rather than violent intervention? This would only be a problem if one has a major ideological difficulty with effective preventative measures. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “Every” country is doing that? Yes. Well, maybe not Yemen or Honduras, but I thought it was clear that I was talking about industrialized first-world democracies – the kind that value social order and strive to create peaceful societies. No such democracy is even close to the US firearm death rate, not even Mexico with all its drug cartels and corruption. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There’s a correlation vs causation discussion to be had about this, but it’s already the subject of another thread (and I don’t think your side is doing very well there). The only such thread I’ve seen recently is the one that explicitly limits itself to trying to invalidate the old Kellerman study. As I showed over there, there is no shortage of other and much newer corroborating evidence. Since the broad premise is that guns are dangerous and likely to cause deaths and injuries in a wide variety of ways that were never intended when they were brought into the environment ostensibly for “protection”, the abundance of such evidence should not be surprising. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/370 "2018-02-23T18:46:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Is it fearful to own the gun or is the fearfulness you are referring to only due to someone carrying in public? > Preparedness comes to mind a bit more prevalent than fearful. To each their own I suppose. > Does it make YOU fearful to see that person in Applebee’s? The overwhelming majority of people I see on a daily basis aren’t armed. There may be a small handful that are and I just don’t know it, but I feel highly confident that, overwhelmingly, people are not carrying. When I do happen to notice someone carrying, two thoughts simultaneously occur: 1. What the fuck is wrong with that guy bringing a gun into a public space, i.e. What’s he trying to prove/say? 2. What the fuck is he afraid is going to happen to him that the rest of the people around him don’t appear to be afraid of? To me, that person immediately becomes the poster child for the paranoid and delusional or, he must be a complete asshole if he lives in such fear for his life that he goes out in public armed. Worst still, if he thinks he’s creating a safer atmosphere by virtue of the fact that he’s come “prepared”. Does it make me fearful to see such a person at Applebee’s? No. But it makes me want to patronize better establishments where CCweapons aren’t welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/371 "2018-02-23T18:53:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This charge gets leveled at gun owners specifically and Republicans in general (“the politics of fear”) quite regularly around here. Would you concede that the gun control advocates are fearful (of guns and their owners) as well? Possibly. Although I’m not sure how you are defining gun control advocate. Someone that wants to ban private ownership of all guns? I don’t know anyone personally that holds that POV. Someone that wants more restrictions on assault weapons? That would be me. But I have nothing against private ownership of handguns and hunting rifles. My family members have both. My sister-in-law has her CCW permit ( although once she got it and started using it it she actually felt less safe, so she doesn’t carry anymore). No doubt there are some gun control advocates that are acting from fear to ban all guns. As for myself - well, there is fear and there is fear. Yes, I’m scared of the idea of an angry suicidal AR-15 wielding teenager. But that fear is not immediate enough to impact my daily life, and I don’t feel I need to make taking precautions against an AR-15 wielding teenager part of my daily life. And I don’t know any gun control advocates that do. This is why I question people that feel the need to be prepared for a shootout with a crazed gunman everytime they leave their house. Because someone like that may start seeing potential crazed gunmen everywhere. And I’m just not seeing any analogous behavior on the other side. If there was a move among gun control advocates that involved installing bulletproof glass in their homes and cars or wearing body armor to work…I’d think those people were letting their fears get the best of them. But when they manifest that fear by petioning their Congressman - not so much. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/372 "2018-02-23T18:59:51Z")
The good guy with the gun has to be accurate, he or she has to hit one target. The shooter doesn’t have that problem. Its not a target rich environment, it is exclusively targets, nothing but targets. Can’t hit a barn? Can’t miss when you are inside the barn. Presumably, the teachers will be armed with pistols. Again, the accuracy problem, a four inch barrel is not as accurate as a twenty inch barrel, it is physically impossible. The teacher has to fire and hit a fatal spot. the shooter just aims in a general direction and unleashes as many bullets as are needed. And the pistol pokes holes in the target, the AR-15 is a military weapon, it _destroys_ the target. As soon as the shooter sees a teacher, he will open fire on the new acquired target, the teacher has maybe time for one shot before he must take cover or die. If he misses, he dies. As well as those he is trying to protect. This idea does for “stupid” what Gibralter does for rocks. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/373 "2018-02-23T19:27:37Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Well, maybe not Yemen or Honduras, but I thought it was clear that I was talking about industrialized first-world democracies – the kind that value social order and strive to create peaceful societies. No such democracy is even close to the US firearm death rate, not even Mexico with all its drug cartels and corruption. That’s the crazy thing; it’s a third world solution to a third world problem. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/374 "2018-02-23T19:41:34Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > If you arm 20% of the country’s 3.5 million teachers, that’s 700,000 armed teachers and 700,000 guns inside the school. Even if 99% of the teachers can carry a gun all day for 180 school days without incident ( And I think I’m being generous in my assessment of the weapons handling capabilities of teachers), that’s still going to be 70 incidents a year. And you know what’ll happen? A white teacher is going to panic during some confrontation and shoot an unarmed black kid, and the jury’s going to acquit based on some vague assurance by the teacher that, sure, the kid didn’t have a gun as it turns out but it seemed threatening at the time, and all hell will quite understandably break loose. The absolute idiocy of the idea of arming teachers is so colossal that were it not for the fact I saw this coming after the NRA’s response to Sandy Hook, I wouldn’t believe the things I’m seeing. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/375 "2018-02-23T20:02:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This charge gets leveled at gun owners specifically and Republicans in general (“the politics of fear”) quite regularly around here. Would you concede that the gun control advocates are fearful (of guns and their owners) as well? I am not sure what this means, to be honest. I mean, I am concerned about the increase in mass shootings and school shootings. I would like to take steps to prevent or at least reduce gun violence. But that doesn’t mean that I, personally, am afraid of guns or their owners. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/376 "2018-02-23T20:07:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The good guy with the gun has to be accurate, he or she has to hit one target. The shooter doesn’t have that problem. Its not a target rich environment, it is exclusively targets, nothing but targets. Can’t hit a barn? Can’t miss when you are inside the barn. > > Presumably, the teachers will be armed with pistols. Again, the accuracy problem, a four inch barrel is not as accurate as a twenty inch barrel, it is physically impossible. > > The teacher has to fire and hit a fatal spot. the shooter just aims in a general direction and unleashes as many bullets as are needed. And the pistol pokes holes in the target, the AR-15 is a military weapon, it _destroys_ the target. As soon as the shooter sees a teacher, he will open fire on the new acquired target, the teacher has maybe time for one shot before he must take cover or die. If he misses, he dies. As well as those he is trying to protect. > > This idea does for “stupid” what Gibralter does for rocks. Assault weapons can be banned for all I care (good luck taking the only assault weapons on the market from the government though) But an aside, we always get down to this question: What exactly makes the AR-15 or any of it’s plethora of counterparts inherently more dangerous than any other ‘semi-automatic’ (1 trigger pull, one bullet) ? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/377 "2018-02-23T20:14:34Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Assault weapons can be banned for all I care (good luck taking the only assault weapons on the market from the government though) > > But an aside, we always get down to this question: > What exactly makes the AR-15 or any of it’s plethora of counterparts inherently more dangerous than any other ‘semi-automatic’ (1 trigger pull, one bullet) ? No; we don’t always get to that question. This discussion isn’t even about anything to do with that question. Oh sure, it’s a tried-and-true attempt to change the conversation, but no, we don’t have to consider that question in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/378 "2018-02-23T20:17:09Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > Yeah, I know how this thread’s going to go. But I slept on the idea, and decided to say to hell with it and go forward. Honestly though, I don’t know if this is a debate or not, because I’m “just asking questions”. But I want to know some facts/opinions/debate points, etc. > > The point gets made after nearly every school shooting to arm teachers. I’ve made my feelings known (it’s a dumb idea–my mother and aunt were teachers, and wouldn’t have been able to hold a gun properly, much less face an attacker–but my mother and aunt are beside the point, since they’re small data points). > > The point I want to make, and the question I want answered is: how will arming teachers work? Who will pay for it? I agree that arming and training the teachers is a vital step. How to pay for it? Redirection of federal funds from foreign aid to countries that are our enemies would immediately provide billions of dollars. This money could be block granted to the states to spend on the training. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/379 "2018-02-23T20:36:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No; we don’t always get to that question. This discussion isn’t even about anything to do with that question. Oh sure, it’s a tried-and-true attempt to change the conversation, but no, we don’t have to consider that question in this discussion. Since I was quoting Elucidator, I was merely responding to him. So ignore away if that is your desire. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/380 "2018-02-23T20:40:11Z")
Oh goodie. I can’t wait to learn all about selector switches, bayonet mounts and barrel shrouds. This is always the best part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=20)