# Arming teachers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927 "2018-02-16T14:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/381 "2018-02-23T20:40:40Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Assault weapons can be banned for all I care (good luck taking the only assault weapons on the market from the government though) > > But an aside, we always get down to this question: > What exactly makes the AR-15 or any of it’s plethora of counterparts inherently more dangerous than any other ‘semi-automatic’ (1 trigger pull, one bullet) ? I would say the fact that it’s engineered to stay on target during rapid semi-auto fire via a buffer assembly that absorbs recoil that would otherwise be transferred to the shooter, combined with a 30-round magazine sets it apart. It’ll be much more effective than a rifle with, say, a 5-shot internal magazine and solid stock. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/382 "2018-02-23T21:15:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The absolute idiocy of the idea of arming teachers is so colossal that were it not for the fact I saw this coming after the NRA’s response to Sandy Hook, I wouldn’t believe the things I’m seeing. Bear in mind that routinely arming teachers is not something that Second-Amendment ideologues actually **want** society to do. It’s something that they want society to go on **not** doing, so they can go on advocating it as a hypothetically practical measure that’s hypothetically superior to better gun regulation. If we actually **did** institute a policy of arming teachers, with predictably disastrous real-world results, the gun-rights ideologues would have lost one of their deflector shields against arguments for more regulation of guns. They don’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/383 "2018-02-23T21:29:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Bear in mind that routinely arming teachers is not something that Second-Amendment ideologues actually **want** society to do. It’s something that they want society to go on **not** doing, so they can go on advocating it as a hypothetically practical measure that’s hypothetically superior to better gun regulation. > > If we actually **did** institute a policy of arming teachers, with predictably disastrous real-world results, the gun-rights ideologues would have lost one of their deflector shields against arguments for more regulation of guns. They don’t want that. Utah allows law-abiding teachers to get a CCW permit and carry in school (and has done so for many years). The “predictably disastrous real-world results” have largely failed to materialize here. Why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/384 "2018-02-23T21:34:38Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > I have yet to see anyone explain the practicalities of arming teachers. How many teachers per school would be armed? How would that be decided? How would the teachers be chosen? Would it be on a volunteer basis? What if there weren’t enough volunteers? What kind of weapons would be used? Who would provide them? Where would the weapons be stored? How would teachers and police coordinate their efforts? These are just a few of the questions that spring to mind, and that’s even before we get to the question of training and the realities of an active shooter situation. > > I think arming teachers is a catastrophically bad idea (for many of the reasons others have mentioned in this thread). For Trump et al. it’s yet another soundbite that deflects attention from the real issues. I addressed this earlier. I can only tell you in my district, the board (mostly alt-right) started with a proposal to arm all teachers. Due to money concerns, they went down to volunteer teachers. Teachers will have to have a CCW permit( on their own dime), an approved firearm (ditto), CCW holster, etc., and get tested to see how they react to stress. They’ll get very limited training. The proposal is up for a third reading but is a shoo-in. Nobody knows how many teachers will volunteer. The vast majority of teachers are opposed to the idea, and most own guns and are hunters. The feeling is the teachers most likely to volunteer are the Barney Fife types, and there are a few. I don’t know how they’d coordinate with police. The cops just did a live scenario training exercise and looked good, but teachers weren’t involved. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/385 "2018-02-23T21:40:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Utah allows law-abiding teachers to get a CCW permit and carry in school (and has done so for many years). The “predictably disastrous real-world results” have largely failed to materialize here. Why do you think that is? That has been the case for what, 5-6 years now? And there are potentially hundreds of teachers that may be CCW’ing on campus? Increase the number of carrying teachers by 2-3 orders of magnitude, and give it the hundreds or thousands of years that these teachers have to wait, armed, before they get their chance to repel an invader. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/386 "2018-02-23T21:42:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Utah allows law-abiding teachers to get a CCW permit and carry in school (and has done so for many years). The “predictably disastrous real-world results” have largely failed to materialize here. Why do you think that is? Not as many teachers are carrying as you suppose? ---
**Author:** ![chaika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chaika/32/405_2.png) [@chaika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaika)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/387 "2018-02-23T21:58:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Bear in mind that routinely arming teachers is not something that Second-Amendment ideologues actually **want** society to do. It’s something that they want society to go on **not** doing, so they can go on advocating it as a hypothetically practical measure that’s hypothetically superior to better gun regulation. > > If we actually **did** institute a policy of arming teachers, with predictably disastrous real-world results, the gun-rights ideologues would have lost one of their deflector shields against arguments for more regulation of guns. They don’t want that. Spot on. The playbook seems to focus mainly on one tactic: deflect, deflect, deflect. The faux concern about mental health is another example of this approach–and a particularly cynical one, as most conservative politicians are outraged by the very minor reforms of Obamacare. The idea that they would support an overhaul of the mental health system in the US, with the corresponding costs, is laughable. I would love to see some political will around improving mental health care in the US (not because of mass shootings, simply because the provisions are pathetic). But I’m not holding my breath. But the subject is just another way for gun advocates to pretend there is some other solution. US citizens suffer from mental illness at similar rates to Europeans. So why do Americans shoot each other so often while Europeans don’t? I can’t begin to imagine where the problem might actually lie. . . ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/388 "2018-02-23T22:16:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > …snipped… > There’s a correlation vs causation discussion to be had about this, but it’s already the subject of another thread (and I don’t think your side is doing very well there). Really? I guess we see that thread differently (I presume you are referring to the Kellerman Study thread about guns in the home). I guess you see a study with imperfections and declare it flawed. I see “your side” finding a study whose conclusions do not support your worldview, picking apart its imperfections, declaring it flawed, and then asserting opposite conclusions based purely on gut feelings provided by the challenged worldview. For example, the correlation/causation issue is NOT relevant to that paper. The paper acknowledged deficiencies (as all good papers should). Basically, “your side” doing well there amounts to “I disagree, let me put my fingers in my ears, naaaa, naaaa ,naaa…” Sorry about the “your side” thing, but you brought it up. Really, we are all on the same side here, aren’t we? Searching for truth, and all? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/389 "2018-02-23T22:50:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not as many teachers are carrying as you suppose? I never offered an estimate or number of teachers that I “suppose” are carrying (did I?), so how did you reach this conclusion? There aren’t any good statistics on that precise matter that I’m aware of. Neither of us can know with certainty how many Utah teachers carry. We only know that it is a non-zero number. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/390 "2018-02-23T22:51:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That has been the case for what, 5-6 years now? What made you guess 5-6 years? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And there are potentially hundreds of teachers that may be CCW’ing on campus? … Why did you guess “hundreds”? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/391 "2018-02-23T22:58:08Z")
> [@](#): > > There are between 14,000 and 20,000 such officers in the US, according to the National Association of School Resource Officers. > > Mr Peterson had been in his position at the school since 2009, local media report. > > The Sun-Sentinel newspaper said he had worked for the sheriff’s office since 1985 and office records showed his salary for 2016 was $75,673 (£54,137). LOL. But arming teachers will be better. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/392 "2018-02-23T23:01:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What made you guess 5-6 years? > > Why did you guess “hundreds”? Not really guesses, but I don’t have a cite really handy. An article that someone else, I guess not you, pointed to, in one of these many threads that said, that, since the sandy hook shooting, hundreds of teachers have taken classes to be able to carry their gun in on school grounds in Utah. If you are still interested, I can see if I can find it tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/393 "2018-02-23T23:24:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not really guesses, but I don’t have a cite really handy. > > An article that someone else, I guess not you, pointed to, in one of these many threads that said, that, since the sandy hook shooting, hundreds of teachers have taken classes to be able to carry their gun in on school grounds in Utah. > > If you are still interested, I can see if I can find it tomorrow. I’m definitely interested, but let me clarify some things that might help you: There are general-purpose CCW classes offered all throughout Utah, and they have been for many years. Undoubtedly some number of the students of those classes are, in their day-jobs, teachers. Aside from that, there have been some specialized classes, offered to school staff and educators (and eligible college students), often free of charge, in an effort to enable them to protect themselves and their schools. These have certainly become more popular in recent years, and they might well have had just “hundreds” of participants (personally I’d guess the total of these classes is in the thousands already - [this one class scheduled for March 3 already has almost 600 signed up](http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-educators-offered-free-concealed-weapon-course)), but - and this is the important part - **it would be a rather obvious mistake to conclude that only the participants in this latter group represent the sum total of all armed teachers in Utah**. As for your “5-6 years” guess, [this CNN article from 2012](https://www.cnn.com/2012/12/27/us/utah-teachers-weapons/) said: “For 12 years, Utah educators have been able to …”. That would put it at more like 18 years. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/394 "2018-02-23T23:38:33Z")
> [@chaika](#): > > Spot on. The playbook seems to focus mainly on one tactic: deflect, deflect, deflect. > The faux concern about mental health is another example of this approach–and a particularly cynical one, as most conservative politicians are outraged by the very minor reforms of Obamacare. The idea that they would support an overhaul of the mental health system in the US, with the corresponding costs, is laughable. I would love to see some political will around improving mental health care in the US (not because of mass shootings, simply because the provisions are pathetic). But I’m not holding my breath. See I’m all for improving mental healthcare via Obamacare or some other way (I’m not well-versed in what other countries do) just for the sake of improving mental healthcare. I have friends and relatives with mental health challenges and our system really sucks for him. This is a much higher priority to me than trying to reduce school shootings, which as **k9bfriender** has pointed out to us are so vanishingly rare that they don’t warrant much policy attention. I haven’t verified this fact sheet form NAMI but they’re saying 1 in 5 adults experience mental illness in a year. [Mental Health By the Numbers | NAMI](https://www.nami.org/learn-more/mental-health-by-the-numbers) ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/395 "2018-02-24T00:29:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Utah allows law-abiding teachers to get a CCW permit and carry in school (and has done so for many years). The “predictably disastrous real-world results” have largely failed to materialize here. Why do you think that is? Luck of the draw, I’d imagine. I don’t really think that a disturbed Utah schoolboy ever thought “ I can’t shoot up my own school, because Mr. Kelly has a gun. So I’ll go to Nevada and shoot up one of their schools.” And although it wasn’t true at Parkland, it seems like most school shootings are also suicidal acts. if the shooter doesn’t get killed by the cops they usually kill themselves at the end. I don’t think there’s much of a deterrent factor at work. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/396 "2018-02-24T01:25:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Utah allows law-abiding teachers to get a CCW permit and carry in school (and has done so for many years). The “predictably disastrous real-world results” have largely failed to materialize here. Why do you think that is? You must have missed the stories like this one: [Utah teacher shoots herself in the leg while at school](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher-shoots-herself-the-leg-while-school) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/397 "2018-02-24T01:37:39Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > You must have missed the stories like this one: > > [Utah teacher shoots herself in the leg while at school](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher-shoots-herself-the-leg-while-school) Nope. That story is why I included the word “largely” in my post. That is the only incident I’m aware of in which a Utah CCW permit holding teacher had / caused a problem in a Utah school. One in ~18 years. Now, you said “stories like this”. I know there were several stories written about it at the time it happened, so I suppose one could say there are “stories”, but are you aware of any additional _incidents_ by CCW holders in Utah schools, or are you just referring to additional stories about this same one incident? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/398 "2018-02-24T02:20:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Nope. That story is why I included the word “largely” in my post. That is the only incident I’m aware of in which a Utah CCW permit holding teacher had / caused a problem in a Utah school. One in ~18 years. > > Now, you said “stories like this”. I know there were several stories written about it at the time it happened, so I suppose one could say there are “stories”, but are you aware of any additional _incidents_ by CCW holders in Utah schools, or are you just referring to additional stories about this same one incident? There are other stories, but not all of them I could find links for. Searching through newspaper databases there are stories like these below. Not all happened on campus or Utah, but they demonstrate teachers with CCW permits making mistakes: > [@](#): > > Drama teacher, two students suspended after gun play > 31 March 2000 > Copyright 2000. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. > PENSACOLA, Fla. (AP) - A drama teacher and two eighth-graders have been suspended after one of the students, who had taken a box of props to her car, fired a shot into the air from a loaded gun they found under a floor mat. > > Escambia County Sheriff Jim Lowman said Thursday that his office also has asked prosecutors to determine if there would be any basis for criminal charges against the teacher, who had a concealed weapons permit for the gun. > > * * * > > Teacher brings gun to school > 21 April 2001 > (Copyright 2001) > On the second anniversary of the Columbine High massacre Friday, authorities worried a student would bring a gun to school. But it was a 44-year-old substitute teacher who was caught with a loaded .38- caliber revolver. > > Cynthia Seymour, a substitute for Hillsborough schools since March and a former sheriff’s deputy, was questioned after a school deputy saw the handgun poking from her back pocket at Tampa Bay Technical High School. The gun was confiscated, and she was sent home. > > Because Seymour holds a state law enforcement certificate and a concealed weapons permit, it was unclear if she broke any laws. It’s a third-degree felony for someone without a permit to carry a firearm onto school grounds, and a second-degree misdemeanor for someone with a permit. Deputies turned the case over to the State Attorney’s Office for review. > > * * * > > Akron police arrest teacher on weapons charges > 3 September 2008 > (c) 2008. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. > AKRON, Ohio (AP) - Police in Akron say they removed about a dozen shotguns and explosives from the home of a high school science teacher. > > Police say they got an anonymous call Monday about two men arguing and pointing guns at each other. > > * * * > > TEACHER HELD ON ASSAULT CHARGES; The Dunedin High teacher threatened an ex-girlfriend and others, deputies say. > Copyright 2009 St. Petersburg Times. All Rights Reserved. > A Dunedin High School social studies teacher is accused of walking into his ex-girlfriend’s apartment on Thursday and aiming a gun at her - while drunk. > > Then Charles Edward Cramer did it again early Monday morning, according to Pinellas County sheriff’s deputies. That’s when Cramer, 58, was arrested on two counts of aggravated assault and a charge of burglary with assault. > … > When deputies asked him Monday why he was carrying a handgun with him that morning, Cramer told them he had a concealed weapons permit. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/399 "2018-02-24T02:23:18Z")
The conservative The Weekly Standard came against El Trompo’s idea: [http://www.weeklystandard.com/governor-indicted-in-wake-of-affair-has-long-history-of-giving-ethics-and-morality-speeches/article/2011727](http://www.weeklystandard.com/governor-indicted-in-wake-of-affair-has-long-history-of-giving-ethics-and-morality-speeches/article/2011727) > [@](#): > > the president’s idea is far more problematic than its fans may appreciate. > > Let’s begin with the matter of cost: The president called for arming “20 percent” of U.S. public school teachers. There are currently about 3 million of them in the U.S., so we would be looking at arming 600,000 of them. (By comparison, there are currently fewer than 500,000 people in active duty in the U.S. Army) The cost of arming and training (and continually retraining) so many teachers should make any conservative blanch. That the president also called for “bonuses” for teachers packing heat would compound the problem. > > … > > Yet another problem: Some of these guns would end up stolen—either by older students, adult staff, or other thieves. > > Advocates of arming teachers point out that many mass shootings occur in areas deemed “gun-free zones.” That’s true, but school shootings are different from other kinds of mass shootings—virtually all of them are carried out by either current or former pupils with an axe to grind. The attacker doesn’t case randomly for targets. > > It’s important to note, too, that Parkland High School, the scene of the latest atrocity, was not a gun-free zone; there was an armed police officer on duty there. Evidently he hid outside, but the point remains: An armed guard did not deter the shooter. The same goes for Columbine High School, Virginia Tech, and many others. > > States and municipalities may wish to try different policies, but arming so many teachers across the nation would increase the danger, not alleviate it. School shootings are a problem, but the odds of any one school being attacked is still, thankfully, minuscule. Put a gun in the classroom, and it might well become like Chekhov’s gun: Eventually, somebody’s going to use it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927/400 "2018-02-24T07:35:12Z")
At what age do we think an average (school) boy will over power an average female - I think it was about 14, maybe 14 1/2 in my case? All of a sudden there’s a gun loose in the classroom and an angry boy holding it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arming-teachers/808927.md?page=21)